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Music.

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Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Self-Initiative Project Podcast.

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I’m your host, Jim O’Brien. Welcome to episode 16.

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Today, we have my guest Rob Pincus on the line with us. How are you, Rob?

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I’m doing great, Jim. I really appreciate you having me on the podcast.

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We’re doing some great things to open up some people’s minds,

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I think, on some really important topics, and I’m looking forward to participating.

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I appreciate that, and I appreciate you taking time out of your very busy schedule,

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as I’ve learned here as of late to do this with us.

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So before we get started, we’re going to be talking about your company and the

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principles it was found on, ICE training,

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integrity, consistency, and efficiency, as well as the mental illness and how

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that’s come into play and how that has been at play in the firearms community

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and firearm safety and suicide and whatnot, gun negligence.

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But before we get started, we always like to give our guests the opportunity

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to tell us about themselves, their background, their history,

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what they do, what they’re about.

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And, you know, in the gun community, I’m sure you’ve got to be living under

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a rock not to know who you are, but for our audience, let’s pretend like they

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don’t know who Rob is and give them, give them a spiel.

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Yeah, I guess, like you said, if you’re in the gun world, you probably have

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heard my name or seen my face somewhere.

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I’ve been working inside the gun industry, you know, So formally,

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for over 20 years, 1997 is the year I used for that.

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But informally, I was around the industry and the firearms community in different

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ways, you know, going back for a while and including military service for a

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brief time, working in law enforcement, working in executive protection and

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being on the security industry.

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But really, while I was writing for magazines and doing a lot of different promotional

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marketing things inside of the gun community.

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It wasn’t until 2001 that I made the shift to enter full-time into education

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and specifically personal defense education.

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And really the focus for a long time was on defensive shooting skills.

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So I left law enforcement in 2001 to do that.

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And I still hold a reserve deputy badge and serve the county,

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small county out here in Colorado as a training officer and occasionally help

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out with patrol control duties and things like that.

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But really the shift was made in 2001.

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To focus on education and focus on being part of the training community and

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the educational community.

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And it took till about 2003 until training was paying all the bills, so to speak.

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But ever since then, it’s been really exactly what I could have hoped for and

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probably far more than I would ever have expected in terms of the opportunities

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to teach around the world, teach

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some of the most capable military operators on the planet in our U.S.

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Military, both in the Navy side and the Army side and the Air Force side,

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high-end law enforcement guys all over the world, worked for a lot of amazing

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agencies and entities and organizations,

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as well as going all the way to the other end of the spectrum,

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having been able to influence a whole lot of people who haven’t even bought

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their first gun or haven’t even thought about the importance of having a strong

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lock on their door or something like that,

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or the way they live their life in terms of safety and security.

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And I’ve just had a wonderful experience now

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for approaching 20 years doing this full time as an educator and along the way

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I’ve gotten involved with producing television shows and being part of a lot

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of different television projects and writing books and producing DVDs and all

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the streaming and distance education work that I do through Personal Defense

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Network and the USCCA and lots of other places.

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And dealing with things like being on podcasts and being able to educate people

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just conceptually through some of the ideas that are really important and foundational

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to personal defense and self-awareness and just kind of living a good life that

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is safer and more secure because you’re more capable and more prepared.

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All of those things are really important to me. So that’s kind of how I end

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up on the show today, I guess, is getting to do what I want to do and helping

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other people be better prepared to do the things they might need to do. Yeah, and that’s great.

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I think one of the things that, of course, I’ve been following you for a while now myself,

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and I think when we first connected, I think one of the things that wanted me

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to reach out is I noticed when you put out your rights and responsibilities

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shirt that I was like, ah, we’ve got a similarity here with this whole belief in responsibilities.

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And so that was my connection to, to wanting to connect with you initially.

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And speaking of principles, your, your, your company, I see is actually an acronym,

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integrity, consistency, and efficiency.

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And so tell me how that came about and what that means for you and what,

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what messages you have behind that.

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Yeah, I guess, you know, that rights and responsibilities message that you mentioned

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as far as the T-shirt really is an outgrowth, I guess, or an application of the ICE principles,

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integrity, consistency and efficiency, you know, specifically to our Second Amendment rights.

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And the idea that if we want to exercise those rights, we need to do so responsibly.

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And that’s an important message inside of the gun community.

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On a bigger AO, like whatever you want to throw at it, the 150,000 foot kind of view.

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What we do at ICE Training Company, what I’ve tried to do is specifically like

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in all aspects of my life is really we take those three principles, integrity,

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consistency and efficiency, and we reverse them to come to the best conclusion

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for ourselves and for our students if it’s in a specifically educational role.

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So we start with efficiency.

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And efficiency is a modification on effectiveness.

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And it’s a modification that means you’re achieving your goal,

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the idea of effectiveness, that you’ve come up with something that solves a

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problem, but you’re specifically achieving that goal with as little time,

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effort, or energy as possible.

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And while in our everyday lives, that’s obviously self-evidently valuable,

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in an emergency situation, in an acute medical situation, in a self-defense situation.

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That urgency and the efficiency aspect of achieving your goal becomes that much more important. right?

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You don’t have seconds to waste.

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You don’t have extra energy or extra motor skill, you know, focus to waste.

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You don’t have extra awareness to waste on extraneous details.

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So if we can be prepared to not just solve a problem, but in fact,

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to solve a problem as efficiently as possible, with as little time after energy

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investment as possible, we’re significantly more prepared,

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especially in an emergency life-threatening kind of situation. Yeah.

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Under stress, it becomes even more important to be effective and efficient because,

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you know, and that’s a good selling point for doing the training in the first

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place, because without the training, there’s no way you can ever get to that

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point, especially under duress.

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Yeah, we look at a lot of the technical things, the physical skills that we

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teach in the defensive shooting and other aspects of the training.

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And quite often what we have actually done isn’t sat in a room or on a range

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or in a mat room where we’re doing unarmed training and tried to figure out

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the best way possible under those circumstances.

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And that’s that’s one of the big problems, honestly, in the training community,

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in the defensive community is people turn it into a game or they turn it into a sport.

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They look at it like they would look at, you know, pitching a baseball or,

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you know, shooting a basketball into a hoop.

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And when they do that, what they what they do is they end up isolating the mechanics

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or the athleticism of the task,

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as opposed to focusing on the application of the technique they’re trying to

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develop or the skill they’re trying to develop in the more realistic context.

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So a lot of times, you know, thankfully, we don’t need our guns.

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Right. In personal defense and most U.S. law enforcement, we don’t need our guns every day.

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So people get really comfortable training for the range or training for the

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the tech, if you will. Sure.

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So one of the big problems we end up with is this idea that we’ve got a.

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Optimization fetish almost. It’s like, how do I become as good as I can at this

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thing? Because that makes me feel more accomplished.

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Well, the problem is when we optimize ourselves for that environment,

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which isn’t actually the environment we need the skill in, or we presume we

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may someday need the skill in, we’re fooling ourselves.

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And I talk a lot about like driving, right? Because we all have to drive, right?

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We all, you know, I get it. Like there’s a couple of people in Manhattan,

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maybe listening to this podcast that you don’t have to drive,

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but for the rest of it, it’s humorous for a second.

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We all, we all have to drive. So we, we, we, and the way we drive is applied.

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We don’t drive like we’re driving on a racetrack right now. I spend a lot of time on tracks.

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I’ve done a lot of racing. I

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enjoy it as a, as a hobby as well and high performance cars and like that.

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So I’ve spent enough time in that environment while I’m certainly not an expert in that field.

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I understand that there is a vast difference between the way one drives on a

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track to get the best lap time, and even the car you drive, or the way you set

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your car up is so dramatically different than a daily driver kind of thing.

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Go look at Formula One, right? And you look at those cars, they have almost

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no relevance to anyone’s daily driving experience.

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The way they’re driven, the way they’re built, the technology inside of them,

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all those kinds of things, and that’s the ultimate version of racing, right?

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So look at that and we say, for road racing, for cars, if we look at that and we say.

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How are those guys optimizing their lap times? How is Mercedes winning,

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you know, nine out of 10 races?

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Well, they’re doing it by taking every possible advantage and controlling all

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the variables they can in a very predictable environment.

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Well, if I were to approach shooting in the same way, I might get really,

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really good at shooting.

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I’d be really, really effective at controlling all the variables,

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isolating all the metrics and getting exactly the right gun that was best to

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pass the test or to get the highest score on the test or in the game that I was playing.

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And that’s what you do with a car. With NASCAR, they build the cars very differently

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than they do with Formula One because they’re trying to do something different

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in a different way with different limitations in terms of budget and things like that.

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So every different racing setup is going to be a little different.

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Even different tracks, you’re going to set your car up differently,

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taking different corners, you’re going to do it in different ways.

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But because you have memorized the track and because you know,

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you know, six months ahead of time, which track you’re going to be on,

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you can set yourself up for that.

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So that if you take that approach to defensive training,

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you end up with a very choreographed kind of stylized execution of mechanical

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techniques that may or may not apply to the actual road you find yourself driving

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down. We can go back to the driving analogy.

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You’ve kind of painted yourself in a box.

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Yeah. Yeah. So you become, and you become overconfident, right?

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You become really, really good at that one thing.

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So, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s the guy who, who buys the Corvette and you can

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go to the internet and look at like supercar fails or Corvette fails videos like all day long.

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It’s the guy who buys the Corvette. He knows it’ll go zero to 60 in 3.2 seconds.

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He’s sitting Sitting at a red light next to a Dodge Charger or a Ford Mustang,

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everyone involved in this scenario knows the Corvette is faster than the Ford,

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but this guy floors it and he doesn’t realize the road’s a little wet.

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And the back end kicks out from under him and he spins and bounces off the Mustang

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and goes over the curb and hits a telephone pole, which then proceeds to fall

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down and start a fire across the street.

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And it’s like your car was faster, bro. We know.

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But you had no ability to apply that the fact that you had a powerful car that

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you theoretically could hold the steering wheel straight while you accelerated

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in the context of the moment you found yourself in.

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And when we watch people defending themselves with guns or trying to defend

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themselves with guns on video, when we see dash camera videos of police officers shooting,

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we very rarely see the perfect execution of the qualification course type shooting

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that they’ve been practicing and that they were trained to do or they learned to do.

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And we see improvisation. And that improvisation is often pretty efficient. Sure.

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So when we go back to the late 1990s, when we started seeing more and more of

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these dash camera videos,

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more and more videos of people actually in real fights, we started seeing higher

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high level reality based training with simulation simulation rounds and force

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on force training with protective gear in deeply immersive scenarios.

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Scenarios and we would see people responding and even reacting in ways that

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were very, very, very different than what they were supposedly trained to do.

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And it’s those improvisations that we ended up like reverse engineering to try

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to help people be as prepared as possible for the moment because they have a

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baseline set of principled skills where they may not be the fastest shooter

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they could be on the range.

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But they absolutely have a realistic idea of what they’re capable of in the real world.

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And that’s so much more important. And that’s a big, big takeaway from this

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efficiency concept is not just fast, but fast in application in the intended context.

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So it’s a really foundational principle for a whole bunch of reasons.

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But I think people hopefully can see how that is so vital that you’re learning

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how to solve the problem,

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not with the best toolkit in the world, but when your car breaks down on a mountainside

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and you have like a Leatherman and some duct tape,

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can’t you get the job done as opposed to being in the BMW dealership,

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you know, with every tool in the world and it’s, it’s sparkling clean.

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You know, you, you touch on a point indirectly. And I was, as I was listening,

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I was also Googling this quote that I’ve come across a few times doing Krav

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Maga and other things, but it’s, and I guess it’s attributed to some Greek poet

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now they’ve determined, But anyway,

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it says we don’t rise to the level of our expectations.

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We fall to the level of our training.

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So, you know, you’ve got to train to get just good enough to be able to get through it.

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And then hopefully, you know, you’re still not going to do things that you did during your training.

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But hopefully you’ve had enough training where you can improvise and figure

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it out and get through the situation that you may find yourself in.

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Yeah, exactly. And I actually had breakfast this morning with a guy who was

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a former special operations guy, and he’s running a private security company

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for high-end executive protection clients.

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And he’s getting ready to take on some international clients.

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And he knows that some of his guys are going to be a little bit not sure about

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traveling internationally with the responsibility of protecting someone without

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a gun. And we’re not talking about guys going, you know, into Afghanistan.

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We’re talking about guys that are going to want to, you know,

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their wives want to go shopping in London, you know, and so they,

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or they want to try out a new restaurant in Hong Kong. Right.

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And it’s like, if you can’t get people in those environments to understand that

00:14:52.641 –> 00:14:56.281
you got to solve the problems in the ways that are available to you,

00:14:56.321 –> 00:14:59.761
not pretend that you’re always going to have your preferred solution,

00:14:59.881 –> 00:15:02.121
or you’re going to have that problem you predicted.

00:15:02.181 –> 00:15:05.521
Because honestly, at some point, the problem you predicted isn’t a problem anymore.

00:15:05.561 –> 00:15:09.101
Right. Like you wake up in the morning and you’re hungry. degree, it’s not a problem.

00:15:09.881 –> 00:15:15.021
Yeah. Yeah. It’s like, okay, you know, you open a fridge and there’s no food, then you have no money.

00:15:15.121 –> 00:15:18.061
Now you have a problem. Now there’s a problem, right? Yeah. Yeah.

00:15:18.301 –> 00:15:24.001
Yeah. That’s, that’s great that that’s the, the idea behind that part of your training program.

00:15:24.121 –> 00:15:27.021
And I was just having this conversation with a buddy of mine the other day,

00:15:27.041 –> 00:15:30.221
and we were talking about the exact same thing, you know, fundamentally across,

00:15:30.421 –> 00:15:35.341
you know, in the self-defense world, even And they do a fairly good job, not everywhere,

00:15:35.481 –> 00:15:40.861
but they do a fairly good job of putting people in scenarios to work through and think about,

00:15:40.981 –> 00:15:47.061
but they, they don’t, and there’s not a super good way, or we were discussing

00:15:47.061 –> 00:15:51.961
the fact that there’s, it’s not always possible to make someone experience duress

00:15:51.961 –> 00:15:54.781
the way they would if it was on the street, right?

00:15:54.901 –> 00:16:00.781
Even, even going blindly into a scenario room where you don’t know exactly what’s

00:16:00.781 –> 00:16:02.861
going going to happen to you and how you’re going to need to respond,

00:16:03.061 –> 00:16:06.341
you still know you’re about to walk in through the doorway, right?

00:16:06.421 –> 00:16:09.941
And people underestimate how much of an advantage that really is.

00:16:10.081 –> 00:16:13.901
Yeah. I mean, that’s, that’s almost 50% of the mental battle up front.

00:16:13.981 –> 00:16:16.901
Hey, I know I’m about to go in and get my ass beat if nothing else.

00:16:16.961 –> 00:16:19.121
Right. So you just kind of prepare for that.

00:16:19.541 –> 00:16:24.821
So it’s important to try to find training scenarios that do are more realistic

00:16:24.821 –> 00:16:28.901
and at least get you to start thinking about areas that you might need to be

00:16:28.901 –> 00:16:31.161
improving upon so that when when the time comes,

00:16:31.241 –> 00:16:34.761
you can at least think your way through it, if nothing else.

00:16:35.662 –> 00:16:40.182
Yeah. And that is you really and even better than think we go back to effective

00:16:40.182 –> 00:16:42.162
versus efficient is recognized.

00:16:42.322 –> 00:16:47.582
So if you create enough pattern recognition for a certain class of problems,

00:16:47.742 –> 00:16:52.082
you’re going to kind of jump past that kind of old old model.

00:16:52.182 –> 00:16:54.962
People say the Hicks law, the Hicks Hyman law, where you are,

00:16:55.022 –> 00:16:58.962
the more options you have, shorter or the longer your reaction time.

00:16:58.962 –> 00:17:01.202
Yeah, that’s true in a technical way.

00:17:01.302 –> 00:17:05.462
But the human brain has a really strong capability of just getting rid of all

00:17:05.462 –> 00:17:10.502
the extraneous solutions and coming down to hopefully just one recognized solution

00:17:10.502 –> 00:17:13.902
or just a very, two very closely related choices.

00:17:14.102 –> 00:17:18.562
And that quite often can be or sorry, two, two very applicable choices,

00:17:18.682 –> 00:17:20.562
usually that aren’t closely related.

00:17:20.702 –> 00:17:22.982
So in other words, you’ve got the opportunity to fight or flee.

00:17:23.182 –> 00:17:26.582
Right. And if you go fight, well, then the fight option is what it is.

00:17:26.582 –> 00:17:28.742
If you go flee, the flee option is what it is.

00:17:28.782 –> 00:17:32.702
And that makes that decision-making process much, much easier for the prepared

00:17:32.702 –> 00:17:34.802
and trained person. Yep.

00:17:35.182 –> 00:17:37.462
Absolutely. So consistency.

00:17:38.702 –> 00:17:45.002
Consistency is maybe the easiest one to define and to talk about because it

00:17:45.002 –> 00:17:47.642
is kind of self-evident in most ways.

00:17:47.702 –> 00:17:50.442
So consistency takes two forms.

00:17:50.542 –> 00:17:54.342
The most obvious one, I think, is that we need to make sure that whatever it

00:17:54.342 –> 00:17:58.282
is we’re doing is consistent with the other things we do.

00:17:58.382 –> 00:18:03.142
So in other words, if I say, okay, I’m going to solve this problem by gripping

00:18:03.142 –> 00:18:07.802
my, you know, whenever I do X, Y, or Z, I grip my gun a certain way.

00:18:08.322 –> 00:18:15.962
And the way I grip my gun to solve problems X, Y, and Z works 99% of the time,

00:18:16.022 –> 00:18:19.702
then that’s good because I have a consistent grip throughout almost all the

00:18:19.702 –> 00:18:21.742
plausible things I’m going to need to do with that handgun.

00:18:22.002 –> 00:18:25.962
On the other hand, If I have a situation where I say, OK, I’m going to grip

00:18:25.962 –> 00:18:31.782
my gun like this because it gets point zero two percent better when I’m shooting at long distance.

00:18:31.922 –> 00:18:34.722
But then if I’m going to shoot really fast at close distances,

00:18:34.802 –> 00:18:38.542
I’m going to hold my gun in a different way because it’s also point zero two

00:18:38.542 –> 00:18:41.902
percent better in terms of speed, whereas the other one was point zero two percent

00:18:41.902 –> 00:18:43.902
better in terms of precision.

00:18:44.662 –> 00:18:48.542
And then but oh, but if I have to reload, I can’t reload really efficiently

00:18:48.542 –> 00:18:52.542
in this grip. So I’m going to shift my grip a little bit as I’m,

00:18:52.542 –> 00:18:54.102
you know, depleting my ammunition.

00:18:54.322 –> 00:18:56.942
I’m going to shift my grip. So I’m preparing to reload. You know,

00:18:56.982 –> 00:18:59.122
that’s just crazy. And hopefully it sounded crazy.

00:18:59.262 –> 00:19:03.622
And I said, does the idea that you’re not really going to be drawing your gun

00:19:03.622 –> 00:19:07.342
and putting your hand in a different place on it in a defensive situation based

00:19:07.342 –> 00:19:10.562
on whether the target is 10 feet away or a hundred feet away. Right.

00:19:10.902 –> 00:19:15.762
So if we can have one grip that, again, let’s go back to efficiency.

00:19:15.842 –> 00:19:20.322
So does this grip that I’m pretending that is going to be perfect for me really

00:19:20.322 –> 00:19:25.042
solve the vast majority or all the plausible problems I’m going to need to solve

00:19:25.042 –> 00:19:27.922
in terms of my hand connecting to the gun? And then.

00:19:28.821 –> 00:19:33.681
Is it consistent with as much as possible all the other things I might have to do?

00:19:33.781 –> 00:19:35.841
So I know what I’m probably going to have to do is just pull the gun out of

00:19:35.841 –> 00:19:39.181
my holster, drive it out to an extended shooting position, fire three to five

00:19:39.181 –> 00:19:42.861
rounds, and that’s going to solve whatever problem I’m going to need to solve, right?

00:19:42.921 –> 00:19:47.301
That’s like an 80 plus percent likelihood in the defensive shooting world.

00:19:47.721 –> 00:19:50.921
We look at what actually happens to people who carry guns and need to defend

00:19:50.921 –> 00:19:54.561
themselves, whether it’s law enforcement or the average person carrying concealed.

00:19:55.001 –> 00:19:59.001
So if it does, then great. wait, okay, what about the other 15%?

00:19:59.021 –> 00:20:01.141
What if I do have to reload? What if I have a malfunction?

00:20:01.441 –> 00:20:04.101
What if I’m only shooting with one hand instead of two? What if I have to shoot

00:20:04.101 –> 00:20:06.621
someone at 20 yards instead of just 15 feet?

00:20:06.921 –> 00:20:09.001
Well, yeah. Is it still consistent?

00:20:09.521 –> 00:20:13.941
And consistency can’t be a make or break because consistency can’t be a hundred percent.

00:20:14.121 –> 00:20:18.621
So efficiency, if you give me two different options and one solves the problem

00:20:18.621 –> 00:20:22.801
more efficiently than the other, I’m going to choose the more efficient one. It’s pretty objective.

00:20:23.561 –> 00:20:26.981
Consistency has to have an asterisk because we know nothing is absolute.

00:20:27.181 –> 00:20:29.081
Nothing is always going to work.

00:20:29.301 –> 00:20:37.101
So the other side of consistency is, is it consistent with the intended context of use, right?

00:20:37.181 –> 00:20:41.321
So in other words, not just the physical skill, like how am I, how I’m holding the gun?

00:20:41.401 –> 00:20:44.701
Does it allow me to, you know, release the magazine efficiently with my strong

00:20:44.701 –> 00:20:48.761
hand thumb, but also does it work in the context of fighting?

00:20:48.901 –> 00:20:52.701
In other words, can I achieve that grip without looking at my gun, for example?

00:20:52.741 –> 00:20:55.881
Can I have my eyes on a threat, reach down behind my jacket,

00:20:56.001 –> 00:20:58.021
get my hand on my gun in my holster.

00:20:58.041 –> 00:21:00.881
Can I get this grip while the gun’s in the holster, right?

00:21:00.981 –> 00:21:04.201
Now this may be more of a holster issue than it is a grip issue.

00:21:04.361 –> 00:21:08.841
So if I hit the consistency point and I say, no, it doesn’t work with this holster,

00:21:08.901 –> 00:21:14.381
but I go back to efficiency, this is still absolutely a superior choice for the grip.

00:21:14.421 –> 00:21:17.841
Then maybe what I need to do is change the circumstances that I can control

00:21:17.841 –> 00:21:22.881
and use a a different holster and and so consistency is is a pretty pretty fluid

00:21:22.881 –> 00:21:27.901
uh principle that’s incredibly important but but sometimes hard to pin down

00:21:27.901 –> 00:21:30.221
yeah because it all depends could be,

00:21:31.661 –> 00:21:38.761
situational lighting grip capability gear all those things have an impact and

00:21:38.761 –> 00:21:44.801
and it is it is really important to understand that the i don’t know i guess the.

00:21:45.727 –> 00:21:51.667
Crux of consistency that so many people fall back to is wanting it to be absolute.

00:21:51.887 –> 00:21:56.947
And you have to accept the fudge factor of it’s never going to be absolute.

00:21:57.227 –> 00:22:02.267
And because it’s quote unquote never absolute, you’ve got to go to the next step.

00:22:02.387 –> 00:22:07.227
And that next step really is, if we understood everything else without needing

00:22:07.227 –> 00:22:10.787
to define it, integrity would be the end all be right?

00:22:10.907 –> 00:22:14.107
So what kind of, what do we mean by integrity?

00:22:14.247 –> 00:22:17.267
What kind of integrity are we talking about? Is it, do we mean something that’s

00:22:17.267 –> 00:22:18.747
strong, like structural integrity?

00:22:19.027 –> 00:22:22.547
Do we mean morally appropriate? You know, do we ethical?

00:22:22.907 –> 00:22:27.287
What, what is, well, all those things turn in and come into play, right?

00:22:27.647 –> 00:22:33.067
They can, you know, personally for me, I feel like the, the structural integrity

00:22:33.067 –> 00:22:36.007
kind of gets taken care of by the efficiency and effectiveness,

00:22:36.007 –> 00:22:42.167
And then consistency talks about the plausibility and the wider range of efficiency.

00:22:42.547 –> 00:22:47.487
And I think that’s covered. So I really am talking about a much less objective

00:22:47.487 –> 00:22:51.767
and a much more subjective interpretation of integrity. Integrity.

00:22:51.787 –> 00:22:55.147
So let’s go back to the training company in terms of personal defense training.

00:22:55.467 –> 00:23:00.127
When we sit down and say, you know, should we see a new technique?

00:23:00.267 –> 00:23:02.367
Somebody shows up and say, hey, here’s how I reload the gun.

00:23:02.627 –> 00:23:06.627
We’re looking at it and we’re like, wow, that is so much more efficient than what we’ve been doing.

00:23:06.747 –> 00:23:10.667
And then we go to the next phase. Okay, but wait, is it consistent with the

00:23:10.667 –> 00:23:13.967
other things that we teach? And is it consistent with how we’re going to be holding the gun?

00:23:14.107 –> 00:23:17.327
Is it consistent with the kinds of guns we use? Is it consistent with defensive

00:23:17.327 –> 00:23:19.187
shooting as opposed to competition shooting?

00:23:19.347 –> 00:23:21.987
And then we get past that barrier. Okay. Now integrity.

00:23:22.447 –> 00:23:26.567
Can I put my head, just to sum it up, can I put my head down on the pillow at night?

00:23:27.174 –> 00:23:30.334
Or can I look myself in the mirror, you know, when I get in the morning,

00:23:30.374 –> 00:23:34.274
when I get ready to go teach a class and believe that what I’m about to teach

00:23:34.274 –> 00:23:39.294
or what I just taught earlier in the day was the best thing I could be teaching to those students.

00:23:39.354 –> 00:23:41.594
And not a load of bull crap, too. Right.

00:23:41.734 –> 00:23:44.714
Or not just something that makes them feel good. Right.

00:23:44.794 –> 00:23:48.894
Not just something that I know worked for me or worked for some other guy in

00:23:48.894 –> 00:23:54.694
Vietnam 40 years ago or something that I know is going to make them better at

00:23:54.694 –> 00:23:56.974
competition or better at qualification.

00:23:57.074 –> 00:24:00.934
Is it really the best information I could have given them? And I say believe

00:24:00.934 –> 00:24:04.874
instead of no, because I have to be open to the fact that I could be wrong.

00:24:05.094 –> 00:24:08.174
That’s another integrity point, right? I could be completely wrong.

00:24:08.334 –> 00:24:11.854
Because again, think about it, like somebody shows up and our programs have

00:24:11.854 –> 00:24:15.294
evolved over the years quite a bit because somebody shows up and challenges

00:24:15.294 –> 00:24:18.854
it, asks the question in a different way, or somebody has a solution that we

00:24:18.854 –> 00:24:20.074
haven’t seen before to something.

00:24:20.174 –> 00:24:22.754
And it’s like, hey, try this. Got to evolve. Yeah.

00:24:23.254 –> 00:24:27.774
Yeah. So I have to be willing to always say, okay, it was the most efficient thing.

00:24:27.834 –> 00:24:31.434
It was It was like the best 2017 version I could have come up with.

00:24:31.514 –> 00:24:34.634
But now it’s 2019 and this is the better way.

00:24:34.954 –> 00:24:38.434
So I have to be able to look myself in the mirror. I’ve got to put my head down on the pillow.

00:24:38.594 –> 00:24:43.174
I have to be able to explain it to students. Like the integrity covers the why also.

00:24:43.434 –> 00:24:45.774
So it’s easy enough to be objective with the efficiency.

00:24:46.694 –> 00:24:50.014
Consistency is more of logic than I think, you know, objective fact.

00:24:50.134 –> 00:24:53.674
It’s just, well, logically, this is why we’re doing this, because we believe

00:24:53.674 –> 00:24:58.214
these are going going to be the circumstances, or we think this also might need to be important.

00:24:58.314 –> 00:25:02.494
So we say it’s consistent, but then we get to the integrity piece.

00:25:02.634 –> 00:25:06.514
And part of that goes back from a teaching standpoint, goes back to the consistency.

00:25:06.834 –> 00:25:10.714
Is it consistent for the student? Because it may be the best thing for Navy

00:25:10.714 –> 00:25:14.034
SEALs, but if I’m teaching local cops, I need to make sure what I’m teaching

00:25:14.034 –> 00:25:17.434
is the best for them, right? And there could be some nuances to that.

00:25:17.534 –> 00:25:22.114
If it’s somebody with a revolver versus somebody with a semi-automatic pistol, is that important?

00:25:22.374 –> 00:25:24.994
Well, in some cases, is it’s really important to what we teach them and how

00:25:24.994 –> 00:25:27.354
we teach them to do things. So the integrity piece.

00:25:28.065 –> 00:25:31.365
Is i people say so then get away from the teaching what

00:25:31.365 –> 00:25:34.985
is rob’s like personal definition and

00:25:34.985 –> 00:25:37.625
i actually ask this in all my instructor development courses i tell people to

00:25:37.625 –> 00:25:40.605
write down like what is a definition of integrity and you

00:25:40.605 –> 00:25:44.345
see this wide range you know you get 10 people in the room you’ll get you know

00:25:44.345 –> 00:25:49.665
probably six or seven very distinct conceptual or philosophical statements being

00:25:49.665 –> 00:25:55.365
made around the room and some people focus on so what i think sometimes is like

00:25:55.365 –> 00:25:58.865
the the the the, you know, apple for the teacher answer,

00:25:59.085 –> 00:26:02.965
which, which is like staying true to the principles of the program you’re teaching,

00:26:03.145 –> 00:26:05.525
you know, like not, not, that’s what he wants to hear.

00:26:06.005 –> 00:26:09.705
Yeah. From Rob’s doctrine. Like I will, I will teach with integrity, sir.

00:26:09.785 –> 00:26:12.685
You know that. And then you hear other people who do like a broader,

00:26:12.765 –> 00:26:15.905
less kiss assy version of that, where they’ll say, you know.

00:26:16.405 –> 00:26:21.365
Following the guidelines set forth by the endeavor or the grueling body or whatever,

00:26:21.445 –> 00:26:23.405
they’ll come up with it, but these are very external, right?

00:26:23.465 –> 00:26:26.845
Then other people will go more to the ethical moral side.

00:26:27.085 –> 00:26:30.085
And they’ll say, you know, acting within, they’ll actually use those words a

00:26:30.085 –> 00:26:33.745
lot, acting within moral boundaries or, you know, acting in a way that is ethical.

00:26:33.865 –> 00:26:37.385
And that’s always a kind of a throwaway because then you have to define ethics

00:26:37.385 –> 00:26:41.825
or morals, or at least define your morals or your community’s ethics.

00:26:42.005 –> 00:26:43.325
Now you’re going down a rabbit hole.

00:26:43.745 –> 00:26:49.145
Yeah. So it’s, and I guess to some extent, what I do is, is I avoid the whole

00:26:49.145 –> 00:26:53.705
question in some ways because I tell them, you know, all, almost always they’re all valid, right?

00:26:53.725 –> 00:26:58.305
So I’ll say, okay, Does anyone forget about whether you think your answer is

00:26:58.305 –> 00:26:59.725
better if you have a follow-up question?

00:26:59.905 –> 00:27:05.805
But just on the face of it, as wrote, did anybody hear anybody say anything

00:27:05.805 –> 00:27:10.565
that you absolutely 100% can’t figure out how anyone could ever possibly attribute

00:27:10.565 –> 00:27:14.625
the sentence that was uttered to the word integrity? And almost never.

00:27:14.745 –> 00:27:17.825
And no one, you know, people will say, well, can you say that one again or whatever?

00:27:17.945 –> 00:27:19.925
But almost never does anybody really have an objection.

00:27:20.165 –> 00:27:25.365
There’s very valid, diverse ideas about what integrity means.

00:27:25.545 –> 00:27:31.805
But for me, I sum it up with Polonius, you know, his advice to Laertes in Hamlet

00:27:31.805 –> 00:27:35.805
when he says, you know, sums it all up with, to thine own self be true. Sure.

00:27:36.105 –> 00:27:39.365
And what that means to me is it goes back to putting my head down the pillow

00:27:39.365 –> 00:27:40.585
or looking at myself in the mirror.

00:27:40.665 –> 00:27:45.385
I have to believe that what I just did was the right thing to do or the best

00:27:45.385 –> 00:27:48.845
information to put out or my choice here is the best one I could make.

00:27:49.065 –> 00:27:52.785
And that might mean somebody is going to disagree with me. It might mean somebody

00:27:52.785 –> 00:27:56.065
is going to say that they don’t they don’t get it along with not agreeing. green.

00:27:56.225 –> 00:27:59.965
And I hopefully can fall back to some of the things talked about during consistency

00:27:59.965 –> 00:28:02.385
or some of the reasons I believe something’s more efficient.

00:28:02.645 –> 00:28:05.805
And maybe that’s where I’m going to find out I’m wrong. But at the end of the

00:28:05.805 –> 00:28:10.245
day, if I don’t fundamentally believe I’m making the best choice,

00:28:10.425 –> 00:28:16.465
I believe it is a disenfranchisement of your own self to say,

00:28:16.565 –> 00:28:18.125
I’m teaching this because.

00:28:18.665 –> 00:28:21.325
The program says, and I was born

00:28:21.325 –> 00:28:25.045
kind of half jokingly with the instructor candidates. It’s if you ever,

00:28:25.851 –> 00:28:28.551
answer a student’s question with that’s the way we do

00:28:28.551 –> 00:28:31.351
it yeah or that’s the well not even that’s

00:28:31.351 –> 00:28:34.611
the way we do it if you ever attribute that shit to me or something you’re like

00:28:34.611 –> 00:28:37.591
rob says this like no like i told me

00:28:37.591 –> 00:28:42.591
to be completely irrelevant like that’s the worst answer you know like and then

00:28:42.591 –> 00:28:46.131
the follow-up joke is always like especially if we’re in a bar at late at night

00:28:46.131 –> 00:28:50.631
because rob told me to is not the reason to do anything like just you have to

00:28:50.631 –> 00:28:56.771
have a real sense of this is what what I should do, and I believe it.

00:28:57.011 –> 00:29:00.191
And sure, do I put faith in other mentors of mine?

00:29:00.311 –> 00:29:05.071
Do I listen to advice from other people? Do I attribute some of the things I

00:29:05.071 –> 00:29:07.191
teach to having come from other people? Absolutely.

00:29:07.371 –> 00:29:12.931
But I believe I know why, either at least why I’ve chosen to follow that mentor’s

00:29:12.931 –> 00:29:16.571
advice, or at least why I’ve chosen to follow that other instructor’s guidance

00:29:16.571 –> 00:29:21.891
in this technique, or I absolutely know in many cases why they recommended it.

00:29:21.991 –> 00:29:27.871
So it’s one thing to appeal to someone’s sense of admiration or one,

00:29:27.911 –> 00:29:30.811
you know, appeal to someone else who’s an established authority and say,

00:29:30.891 –> 00:29:34.511
well, you know, so-and-so says this and, and let that stand.

00:29:34.671 –> 00:29:37.531
But if somebody looks at me and says, I don’t know who that is,

00:29:37.631 –> 00:29:42.231
well, I can’t hold them accountable for not knowing who my preferred guru is.

00:29:42.331 –> 00:29:44.011
Right. Like maybe you’ve never heard of Shakespeare.

00:29:44.211 –> 00:29:46.951
You have no idea who Polonius and Laertes are. No idea.

00:29:47.651 –> 00:29:50.191
Right. Like I still You’ll have to be able to explain, like,

00:29:50.311 –> 00:29:52.111
to thine own self be true.

00:29:52.231 –> 00:29:58.411
You have got to be able to defend vehemently and potentially relentlessly what

00:29:58.411 –> 00:30:04.651
it is you did based on your own thoughts, based on your own concept, your own conclusions,

00:30:04.891 –> 00:30:08.131
not because somebody else told you or because that’s what’s in the book.

00:30:08.131 –> 00:30:12.131
And that’s, again, going kind of full circle back to the defensive shooting world.

00:30:12.171 –> 00:30:17.351
The guy who is teaching the NRA basic pistol program as a concealed carry course

00:30:17.351 –> 00:30:22.811
because that’s what their state mandates be taught, but says to the entire room

00:30:22.811 –> 00:30:25.831
full of people wanting to hear life and death information,

00:30:26.171 –> 00:30:29.871
hey, you guys have to know I’m only teaching this course because it’s what the

00:30:29.871 –> 00:30:33.611
county says I have to teach. It’s not really a concealed carry course.

00:30:33.991 –> 00:30:37.291
It’s just a basic, you know, marksmanship and firearm safety course.

00:30:37.631 –> 00:30:41.371
I get what that guy is doing and I understand how it works.

00:30:41.431 –> 00:30:45.051
And he has to sort of play that game and he has to hope those people are going

00:30:45.051 –> 00:30:48.911
to hear that the right way and come back and take a real defensive shooting course.

00:30:49.031 –> 00:30:52.071
But at the end of the day, if every defensive shooting instructor,

00:30:52.211 –> 00:30:55.511
and more importantly, if the NRA had stood up and said to that County,

00:30:55.651 –> 00:30:57.171
Hey, that’s not what that course is for.

00:30:57.331 –> 00:31:00.931
That shouldn’t be getting people the permit. You know, the constitution says

00:31:00.931 –> 00:31:03.571
they don’t need a permit, but if you’re going to make them get training,

00:31:03.731 –> 00:31:04.891
that’s not the right course.

00:31:05.191 –> 00:31:09.951
That would be an integrity play and the system would grind to a halt until it was fixed.

00:31:10.071 –> 00:31:13.131
But the fact that enough people are willing to jump through that hoop and just

00:31:13.131 –> 00:31:18.491
teach that, you know, miss a misapplied course, unfortunately gives a lot of

00:31:18.491 –> 00:31:21.051
people that don’t hear that or don’t listen to that advice.

00:31:21.944 –> 00:31:25.044
Because obviously not every instructor says that they’re running around with

00:31:25.044 –> 00:31:27.724
it, with a piece of, you know, a piece of plastic in their wallet that says

00:31:27.724 –> 00:31:29.584
they’re certified to carry a gun.

00:31:29.684 –> 00:31:33.064
They’re carrying a gun in public and they’re probably just incredibly naive

00:31:33.064 –> 00:31:34.344
and overconfident about what

00:31:34.344 –> 00:31:38.384
they’re actually capable of because the training was so inappropriate.

00:31:38.684 –> 00:31:42.384
Yeah. And I think, you know, the integrity piece in my mind,

00:31:42.424 –> 00:31:46.124
you know, I know we work these things backwards because from a training perspective,

00:31:46.164 –> 00:31:48.284
that makes most sense for what you’re doing.

00:31:48.284 –> 00:31:53.364
But it makes most sense for me that integrity is actually the first in line,

00:31:53.464 –> 00:31:59.524
because especially in the defensive world, shooting, using that potentially deadly tool.

00:31:59.824 –> 00:32:03.444
You can’t afford to give people bad information.

00:32:03.444 –> 00:32:07.444
You got to be able to look yourself in the mirror and say, I’ve given them the

00:32:07.444 –> 00:32:11.044
best that I know how to do right now until the next best thing comes along and

00:32:11.044 –> 00:32:14.684
we figure out and explore it because they’re potentially, you know,

00:32:14.684 –> 00:32:17.484
they’re going to training and learning these lessons,

00:32:17.744 –> 00:32:19.964
getting this tool set, so to speak.

00:32:20.044 –> 00:32:25.244
So they know how best to handle a really potentially bad situation.

00:32:25.384 –> 00:32:31.224
So in my mind, that that’s why that piece is so important. It is.

00:32:31.304 –> 00:32:36.324
And to me, that’s why it really is the bottom line foundational last hurdle.

00:32:36.524 –> 00:32:41.564
We can hem and haw all we want over muzzle up, muzzle down, look at your gun,

00:32:41.684 –> 00:32:44.784
don’t look at your gun, all the details of the tech, the efficiency.

00:32:44.784 –> 00:32:47.464
Efficiency but at the end of the day you have to believe in

00:32:47.464 –> 00:32:50.384
what you’re doing and if if you know if the most

00:32:50.384 –> 00:32:53.584
decorated you know warriors of modern society

00:32:53.584 –> 00:32:56.464
showed up at my house you know tomorrow and

00:32:56.464 –> 00:32:59.224
said hey we really believe this this this and this

00:32:59.224 –> 00:33:04.564
and i say why and their answer is because we’re the most decorated modern warriors

00:33:04.564 –> 00:33:09.844
ever so there i’m not convinced like okay neat high five i’ll buy you a drink

00:33:09.844 –> 00:33:14.164
get a selfie for the internet but right now like you got to convince me that

00:33:14.164 –> 00:33:18.804
That muzzle up is a better choice with logic, with objective fact,

00:33:18.944 –> 00:33:22.704
because I already have all these reasons over many, many years to say,

00:33:22.744 –> 00:33:26.824
no, I think pointing the muzzle down is much better, smarter, safer way to train.

00:33:27.124 –> 00:33:30.604
So you can’t just show up and expect me to go the other direction,

00:33:30.724 –> 00:33:33.644
no matter how impressive or successful you’ve been.

00:33:33.704 –> 00:33:38.204
Success breeds complacency. You could have been the best guy in the world using

00:33:38.204 –> 00:33:43.824
a bolt-action rifle, but if you are even mediocre with a semi-auto,

00:33:44.004 –> 00:33:46.064
you’re going to be able to take out more enemies.

00:33:46.284 –> 00:33:49.844
So how about you become a better shooter with the new thing instead of telling

00:33:49.844 –> 00:33:51.744
me I should learn how to shoot a bolt-action gun?

00:33:52.004 –> 00:33:55.744
And that’s kind of what a lot of guys do in this industry. They get really complacent

00:33:55.744 –> 00:33:59.264
based on prior success or at least the illusion of success. Sure.

00:34:00.303 –> 00:34:04.503
So switching gears for a moment, I want to change subjects completely because

00:34:04.503 –> 00:34:08.923
I’ve noticed as of late, you’ve kind of been involved with, and I know you’re

00:34:08.923 –> 00:34:11.623
part of Walk the Talk America.

00:34:11.763 –> 00:34:15.543
And I think this is so important that these sorts of conversations take place

00:34:15.543 –> 00:34:20.803
relative to mental health and the firearms community and the impacts it potentially

00:34:20.803 –> 00:34:22.343
has there or has had there.

00:34:22.403 –> 00:34:24.963
We know they’ve had there, right? And the issues that there are.

00:34:25.283 –> 00:34:28.563
Let’s talk about WTTA for a few moments.

00:34:29.363 –> 00:34:35.743
Yeah, Walk the Talk America is a really important project. And we’re just at a year mark.

00:34:36.043 –> 00:34:39.463
I actually had a conversation with Mike Sedini, the founder of Walk the Talk

00:34:39.463 –> 00:34:42.783
America this morning. We’re going to be meeting tomorrow out in Las Vegas.

00:34:43.003 –> 00:34:48.023
And that’s all obviously in the past now when people are hearing this.

00:34:48.023 –> 00:34:53.343
But kind of just the point being, we’re in very frequent conversation and we’re

00:34:53.343 –> 00:34:54.863
doing a lot of work with that organization.

00:34:55.123 –> 00:35:00.123
And this organization was founded really more than anything else to raise awareness

00:35:00.123 –> 00:35:07.523
about the intersection of the practical intersection of mental health issues and firearms.

00:35:07.523 –> 00:35:12.103
And especially inside of the gun community, raise awareness of the fact that

00:35:12.103 –> 00:35:17.003
there are things you really need to be thinking about in terms of your mental

00:35:17.003 –> 00:35:19.503
health that affect your family,

00:35:19.583 –> 00:35:25.423
that affect people around you, and that are affected by your access to or control over firearms.

00:35:25.423 –> 00:35:30.063
And certainly your family or anyone in your immediate sphere that has access

00:35:30.063 –> 00:35:34.603
or potential access to your firearms, their mental health also needs to be of

00:35:34.603 –> 00:35:38.483
interest or concern to any responsible firearms owner as well.

00:35:38.583 –> 00:35:42.663
And it’s okay to talk about it. In fact, it’s important to talk about it. Sure.

00:35:43.163 –> 00:35:46.603
And I know one of the points I made, because I’ve watched some of your videos

00:35:46.603 –> 00:35:53.483
that you and Mike have put out, I know one of the concerns in the community is that if I talk about.

00:35:54.596 –> 00:35:57.656
You know, I’m not going to call it mental illness, but I’ll talk about things

00:35:57.656 –> 00:36:00.596
that I’m feeling or thinking going through.

00:36:01.056 –> 00:36:06.476
Is this going to harm my ability to exercise my Second Amendment rights?

00:36:06.776 –> 00:36:11.836
You know, I think a roadblock for a lot of that is the fact that on your paperwork,

00:36:11.996 –> 00:36:14.576
it asks about your mental state. Right.

00:36:14.696 –> 00:36:18.976
And so, you know, how do I check that? I’ve never been really formally evaluated.

00:36:19.136 –> 00:36:20.996
I feel kind of funky or depressed.

00:36:21.196 –> 00:36:25.316
Do I check this box? Do I don’t? If I do, can I buy this firearm?

00:36:25.596 –> 00:36:29.176
You know, there’s a lot of challenges around that, but I think it’s important

00:36:29.176 –> 00:36:30.876
to conversations start.

00:36:31.036 –> 00:36:35.696
And then that extends to the safety and keeping those firearms locked up and

00:36:35.696 –> 00:36:40.876
some other, other means of, of making sure that the house that that person is

00:36:40.876 –> 00:36:43.076
in is in as safe as possible.

00:36:43.596 –> 00:36:46.916
Yeah. There, you know, here’s the thing, and I’m going to say this,

00:36:46.916 –> 00:36:50.656
and then this is going to get quoted in or out of context. And regardless,

00:36:50.856 –> 00:36:52.176
people are going to hate it. Yeah.

00:36:52.496 –> 00:36:57.836
There’s this question of, well, what if I talk to someone as a mental health

00:36:57.836 –> 00:37:03.276
professional or I asked for help and then they take away my guns?

00:37:03.636 –> 00:37:07.476
Well, the answer is maybe you needed to have your guns taken away. Sure.

00:37:08.016 –> 00:37:13.936
Okay. So if we’re not open to that, maybe, and it could be 0.01% chance. It could be a 10% chance.

00:37:14.036 –> 00:37:18.636
I don’t know. But if we’re not open to that, maybe actually being the answer,

00:37:18.796 –> 00:37:20.556
then we don’t have anywhere else to go.

00:37:20.656 –> 00:37:24.076
So you want to talk about like the integrity issue, like this is me being really efficient.

00:37:24.276 –> 00:37:27.936
Like I’m going to jump past the, let’s forget about the hemming and hawing over

00:37:27.936 –> 00:37:30.136
what the details of the diagnosis are.

00:37:30.216 –> 00:37:35.376
Let’s just get to the fit for efficiency sake in the context we’re talking about

00:37:35.376 –> 00:37:40.076
the integrity all has to be acknowledging as the pro gun,

00:37:40.196 –> 00:37:42.016
as the pro second amendment advocate,

00:37:42.076 –> 00:37:46.676
as that guy that yes, there are some people who do to mental issues.

00:37:47.710 –> 00:37:50.690
Temporarily or for the rest of their lives, I don’t know.

00:37:50.810 –> 00:37:55.230
But I do know that those people at certain times do exist that should not have

00:37:55.230 –> 00:37:58.190
access to firearms just as much as they shouldn’t have access to firecrackers.

00:37:58.190 –> 00:38:00.310
They shouldn’t be driving a car, you know, whatever.

00:38:00.490 –> 00:38:04.230
Right. So but the firearm falls under that. So when you hear things like,

00:38:04.310 –> 00:38:09.410
well, you know, the veterans are afraid to go ask for help because if they talk

00:38:09.410 –> 00:38:12.870
about PTSD, they might lose their their Second Amendment rights.

00:38:12.910 –> 00:38:16.330
And these guys fought for our Second Amendment rights. How can we take their guns away.

00:38:16.490 –> 00:38:22.090
Well, when I see, you know, 20, 22, 25, 17 of them killing themselves every

00:38:22.090 –> 00:38:26.270
day, the vast majority of them with firearms, I start to think,

00:38:26.330 –> 00:38:28.590
wait a minute, maybe we’re the ones being selfish.

00:38:28.690 –> 00:38:32.890
Maybe we’re the ones being scared and selfish that if we allow the window of

00:38:32.890 –> 00:38:37.090
opportunity for a soldier to get help that might include the reasonable advice

00:38:37.090 –> 00:38:41.470
that he not have access to firearms for a certain period of time, well then wait a minute.

00:38:41.510 –> 00:38:44.730
Now our community is vulnerable because we’re admitting that there’s a potential

00:38:44.730 –> 00:38:46.950
negative outcome from firearms ownership.

00:38:47.150 –> 00:38:50.490
Well, if you’re not admitting that there’s potential negative outcomes from

00:38:50.490 –> 00:38:54.670
having firearms in your world, you’re not responsible enough to have a firearm in your world.

00:38:55.330 –> 00:38:59.590
And that’s a hard thing for people to hear, especially from a pro-gun guy.

00:38:59.690 –> 00:39:03.830
And that I’m also a pro-responsibility guy, right? So go all the way back to

00:39:03.830 –> 00:39:06.030
what you said about that rights and responsibilities shirt.

00:39:06.250 –> 00:39:09.490
If what’s happening now, like with red flag laws and things like that,

00:39:09.490 –> 00:39:14.730
is if we’re not able to demonstrate a maturity and a responsibility on our own

00:39:14.730 –> 00:39:16.970
inside our community, we are going

00:39:16.970 –> 00:39:21.010
to have other people’s versions of responsibility legislated upon us.

00:39:21.090 –> 00:39:23.790
And that’s been really clear for like a hundred years in the U.S.

00:39:23.810 –> 00:39:25.710
It’s right when it comes to guns, right?

00:39:25.850 –> 00:39:31.670
And until we can demonstrate a level of community interest and responsibility

00:39:31.670 –> 00:39:35.630
and proactiveness and just maturity in terms of admitting the problems,

00:39:35.750 –> 00:39:39.030
we’re going to continue to face mental health.

00:39:39.635 –> 00:39:45.475
Initiatives, mental health based initiatives as a weaponized component of gun control.

00:39:45.575 –> 00:39:48.515
And only until, you know, we have to get involved in a conversation.

00:39:48.635 –> 00:39:51.775
That’s what Walk the Talk America is all about, really, is the baseline is getting

00:39:51.775 –> 00:39:55.315
involved, having the conversations with, quote unquote, both sides.

00:39:55.455 –> 00:39:59.295
Right. But they’re not antagonistic sides. They’re just different sides.

00:39:59.555 –> 00:40:02.515
There’s a side of that equation that is the mental health professional.

00:40:02.575 –> 00:40:07.115
And there’s a side of that equation that is the gun owner. And only the rhetoric

00:40:07.115 –> 00:40:13.235
and the divisive politics and just our nature of, you know, polarized in a black

00:40:13.235 –> 00:40:15.015
and white conversation in the U.S.

00:40:15.015 –> 00:40:18.375
Right now is what makes those sides antagonistic. Right.

00:40:18.455 –> 00:40:22.335
You can’t walk into the average mental health professional’s office and expect

00:40:22.335 –> 00:40:24.795
him to be like vehemently anti-gun.

00:40:24.795 –> 00:40:29.755
You also can’t walk into the average gun owner’s house and expect them to,

00:40:30.035 –> 00:40:34.075
you know, swear off any potential help that mental, professional,

00:40:34.175 –> 00:40:37.255
adult, professional, psychiatrist, psychologist, therapist could ever give another

00:40:37.255 –> 00:40:39.415
human being. They’re not really anti.

00:40:39.555 –> 00:40:43.395
They just don’t understand the other side. And, and hopefully walk stock America

00:40:43.395 –> 00:40:48.035
is continuing to educate people on both sides of that equation so that they’re

00:40:48.035 –> 00:40:49.495
better able to cooperate.

00:40:49.795 –> 00:40:53.755
Collaborate, and not be turned into pawns for either extreme,

00:40:53.895 –> 00:40:58.015
you know, weaponized against the other where nobody’s winning. Yeah. Yeah.

00:40:58.275 –> 00:41:02.515
And, you know, for me, it makes a lot of sense because I’ve had a lot of conversations

00:41:02.515 –> 00:41:04.835
with a lot of different folks over the years.

00:41:04.855 –> 00:41:08.175
And, you know, obviously on the subject of gun control, right?

00:41:08.275 –> 00:41:12.335
What else can be done? What really can be done except to eliminate them all

00:41:12.335 –> 00:41:15.295
or put these stringent control measures in place?

00:41:15.295 –> 00:41:20.535
And I’ve said for a long time, and this is why this is resonating with me,

00:41:20.595 –> 00:41:24.495
as I’ve said a long time, you don’t do it by extreme gun control.

00:41:24.575 –> 00:41:29.095
You address the mental health issues because that’s really a lot of the times

00:41:29.095 –> 00:41:30.835
where the issues come into play, right?

00:41:30.915 –> 00:41:36.115
Whether we’re talking about active shooter scenarios, issues with PTSD,

00:41:36.535 –> 00:41:39.575
whatever it is, there’s something mentally going on there.

00:41:39.695 –> 00:41:43.475
And that’s where a focus needs to be had. And as best I can tell,

00:41:43.495 –> 00:41:47.855
and I’m sure there’s been some mom and pop organic things done in the past,

00:41:47.975 –> 00:41:50.295
but this is the first large scale,

00:41:50.335 –> 00:41:55.095
so far as I know, initiative to start talking about that very thing.

00:41:55.195 –> 00:42:00.395
So I think it’s important, you know, and I’ve had personal issues with it as well.

00:42:01.655 –> 00:42:06.795
I’ve had to actually take a, I know you guys were recently talking about having

00:42:06.795 –> 00:42:10.235
to, you know, how do you have the conversation when you feel like you need to

00:42:10.235 –> 00:42:15.075
remove a firearm from a household when things may not be as safe as they should

00:42:15.075 –> 00:42:16.455
be to have the firearm there?

00:42:16.775 –> 00:42:20.575
And I was listening to some techniques on, you know, how you might go about

00:42:20.575 –> 00:42:24.735
doing that. And you say, hey, buddy, let me, let me clean your gun for the weekend or whatever.

00:42:24.935 –> 00:42:27.955
And I’m thinking to myself, you know what you do? You just go in and take the

00:42:27.955 –> 00:42:33.235
damn thing and be gone. But I know that has some legal ramifications in some states, too.

00:42:33.375 –> 00:42:36.375
But I’ve had to do that. I’ve had to do it a couple of times.

00:42:36.455 –> 00:42:41.075
And it’s not fun, but hopefully, you know, it’s made things safer,

00:42:41.195 –> 00:42:43.235
at least relative to using that

00:42:43.235 –> 00:42:48.595
particular tool and eliminating that from being an option. Yeah, it is.

00:42:48.715 –> 00:42:52.715
It’s the impulsiveness. When you talk to people inside of the mental health

00:42:52.715 –> 00:42:57.935
community, impulsiveness and sort of access to the opportunistic,

00:42:57.935 –> 00:43:03.035
you know, moment of weakness, having that tool at hand is a big deal.

00:43:03.035 –> 00:43:06.295
So even inside of the firearms community, like if you’re listening to this now

00:43:06.295 –> 00:43:11.295
and you, you familiar with the protect what you love movement and that’s,

00:43:11.295 –> 00:43:15.295
so it’s protect what you love is actually the first t-shirt in the line of t-shirts

00:43:15.295 –> 00:43:18.015
that I did with that, that included the rights and responsibilities.

00:43:18.155 –> 00:43:21.175
One was protect what you love and protect what you love idea.

00:43:21.255 –> 00:43:23.855
I’ve written about it. There’s some videos out there. People can Google it,

00:43:23.875 –> 00:43:26.755
check it out. Maybe if you have notes, you can put some links in there to something

00:43:26.755 –> 00:43:28.455
I’ve written about it or something. And it’s.

00:43:28.950 –> 00:43:32.870
All about finding that thing that motivates you. Like, why are you going to get up and practice?

00:43:33.030 –> 00:43:35.390
Why are you going to wear your gun today? Why are you going to train?

00:43:35.510 –> 00:43:37.090
Why are you going to get the concealed carry permit?

00:43:37.190 –> 00:43:40.410
Like, what is it that motivates you? And I don’t care if it’s your job,

00:43:40.550 –> 00:43:43.010
your, you, you feel like you’re making earth better. You’re it’s you,

00:43:43.050 –> 00:43:45.170
you want to see your, your daughter get married.

00:43:45.310 –> 00:43:48.250
Like you want to finish college, like whatever. I don’t care what your thing is.

00:43:48.310 –> 00:43:51.930
Find the thing that motivates you to want to train and want to be able to protect

00:43:51.930 –> 00:43:54.470
yourself in that worst case scenario, because it is work. Right.

00:43:54.650 –> 00:43:57.310
So I just told people like, get a post-it note, right. Right.

00:43:57.330 –> 00:44:02.630
Protect what you love or write hashtag, you know, P Y W L, you know,

00:44:02.650 –> 00:44:04.250
whatever your your thing is.

00:44:04.530 –> 00:44:09.550
And P W Y L. I was saying it wrong. I was saying it. Put that on the safe.

00:44:09.930 –> 00:44:13.750
Like put that on your your your box that you keep the gun in the closet.

00:44:13.850 –> 00:44:16.450
Put that on your quick access safe. Put it put it somewhere.

00:44:16.670 –> 00:44:21.510
Have a little decorative, you know, rock with it engraved on it and inscribed on it or whatever.

00:44:21.510 –> 00:44:24.950
Ever and put it on top of your tactical wall shelf where you hide your AR just

00:44:24.950 –> 00:44:28.310
so that maybe in that moment when you don’t even know what the moment’s about,

00:44:28.430 –> 00:44:32.990
but three years from now you have like everything is crushing down and falling apart.

00:44:33.310 –> 00:44:37.290
And then you, you know, I don’t know, something else you made a decision you

00:44:37.290 –> 00:44:38.970
probably wouldn’t have made if everything had been fine.

00:44:39.050 –> 00:44:41.630
And then you got caught doing something you didn’t want to get caught doing.

00:44:41.710 –> 00:44:43.710
And then it’s just, oh, it’s bad. It’s bad. It’s bad.

00:44:43.830 –> 00:44:46.270
And your friends are telling you, you fucked up and this and that,

00:44:46.290 –> 00:44:47.290
all these things are falling apart.

00:44:47.610 –> 00:44:50.770
You, you sit, you don’t know how to cope. You reach, You go,

00:44:50.830 –> 00:44:54.690
you pick up the box and there’s that post-it note that’s like, protect what you love.

00:44:54.790 –> 00:44:58.250
Okay, wait a minute. Yeah, my daughter, I still want to do that. Or you know what?

00:44:58.290 –> 00:45:00.710
I could get my job back or, you know, I could do this other,

00:45:00.770 –> 00:45:04.330
whatever the thing is, like maybe that’s the thing that causes you a half second

00:45:04.330 –> 00:45:08.190
of hesitation because all of the professionals on the mental health side,

00:45:08.310 –> 00:45:14.410
which I certainly am not, are suggesting to us and telling us that all the data is very clear.

00:45:14.410 –> 00:45:18.430
Like, if you can put one more step, one more hurdle, one more,

00:45:18.430 –> 00:45:22.710
you know, moment of contemplation between a person’s impulse.

00:45:22.910 –> 00:45:27.270
Yeah, speed bump between their moment of impulse and the moment of action.

00:45:28.131 –> 00:45:31.991
You could save lives pretty easily if you, if you can just put one or two more steps in there.

00:45:32.071 –> 00:45:36.571
So whether it’s keeping your guns unloaded or keeping your guns locked up or

00:45:36.571 –> 00:45:39.631
putting the post-it note on top of the thing that’s holding the gun when it’s

00:45:39.631 –> 00:45:42.671
locked up, all of those things can really make a difference.

00:45:42.811 –> 00:45:47.991
So I think that’s important is this concept before stage four from mental health America,

00:45:48.151 –> 00:45:52.471
who’s one of our collaborators and their idea of before stage four is that like

00:45:52.471 –> 00:45:55.751
with cancer, if you, if you get diagnosed at stage four, it’s,

00:45:55.751 –> 00:45:58.351
it’s really hard to, you know, fight through that. Right.

00:45:58.431 –> 00:46:00.911
But if you get screening and things like that, you find out early,

00:46:01.011 –> 00:46:04.811
you know, stage one, stage two, it’s much easier for modern medicine to deal

00:46:04.811 –> 00:46:06.311
with the cancer in your body.

00:46:06.411 –> 00:46:09.131
And if we can do the same thing with mental illness, if we can get in there

00:46:09.131 –> 00:46:13.571
and get people to be mentally healthier and more resilient way before they have

00:46:13.571 –> 00:46:16.771
an acute problem, then there’s just, they’re better people.

00:46:16.851 –> 00:46:19.911
And I’ve said, you know, what I’ve taken to say is like, we got to treat mental

00:46:19.911 –> 00:46:21.411
health. Like we do physical health, right?

00:46:21.631 –> 00:46:25.531
There’s no, there’s a stigma around mental health. Like it’s all doomsday,

00:46:25.531 –> 00:46:26.851
worst case scenario stuff.

00:46:27.091 –> 00:46:29.971
Like you don’t even want to go in that room except they, you know,

00:46:29.971 –> 00:46:33.131
if you, there’s a difference between spraining your arm and,

00:46:33.131 –> 00:46:36.851
and having your arm, you know, chewed off by a, you know, wood chipper,

00:46:36.931 –> 00:46:40.511
you know, there are different levels of physical ailment to the body,

00:46:40.551 –> 00:46:43.471
just like there are different levels of mental ailment to the body.

00:46:43.511 –> 00:46:46.831
And there’s different treatment and there’s different potential outcomes and

00:46:46.831 –> 00:46:48.811
there’s different longevity to the impairment.

00:46:48.971 –> 00:46:52.611
So there’s all kinds of reasons why people should be asking for this help and

00:46:52.611 –> 00:46:56.131
seeking it out proactively, just like, you know, hopefully you’re eating well

00:46:56.131 –> 00:47:00.431
and, you know, drinking only moderately and maybe not smoking cigarettes anymore

00:47:00.431 –> 00:47:03.771
and getting a little exercise, doing all those things you do for your physical health.

00:47:04.752 –> 00:47:10.532
Well, you know, my personal philosophy is, Rob, is I believe everyone is a little bit crazy.

00:47:10.892 –> 00:47:14.972
So it’s probably not a bad idea that we start thinking in terms of considering

00:47:14.972 –> 00:47:18.212
that along with our physical health or whatever else we’re doing, right?

00:47:18.492 –> 00:47:24.452
And to your point, not every mental issue means that it’s at the extreme and

00:47:24.452 –> 00:47:28.352
you need to have your firearms taken away from you for a period of time or whatever.

00:47:28.352 –> 00:47:31.892
It just is to bring more visibility to the subject matter, because,

00:47:31.952 –> 00:47:36.872
again, I think instead of talking constantly in terms of extreme gun control,

00:47:37.052 –> 00:47:43.132
that we do start addressing this mental issue that this mental topic that is

00:47:43.132 –> 00:47:47.532
mental health issue that’s been avoided or just not, you know,

00:47:47.532 –> 00:47:48.992
just hasn’t been talked about at all.

00:47:49.492 –> 00:47:53.392
Right. Yeah, for sure. And I think that’s the issue. The bottom line is just

00:47:53.392 –> 00:47:56.312
talk about it, raise awareness, get people to discuss these things,

00:47:56.432 –> 00:48:02.192
make sure that they are part of the, just like, you know, do you have kids in the house?

00:48:02.292 –> 00:48:04.512
How do you lock your guns up? You know, do you have a permit?

00:48:04.652 –> 00:48:07.492
Do you, do you carry when you’re drinking? I mean, all these questions that

00:48:07.492 –> 00:48:10.852
every responsible gun owner, especially those interested in defensive ownership

00:48:10.852 –> 00:48:14.392
and potential use of guns, they need to be asking themselves this question.

00:48:14.452 –> 00:48:16.612
Well, the mental health Both ones are the same. And like I said,

00:48:16.652 –> 00:48:19.032
a lot of this stuff is hard and scary to talk about.

00:48:19.132 –> 00:48:21.612
But I’ll give you another example. Inside of the firearms community,

00:48:21.812 –> 00:48:25.752
a lot of people like to point out that so many of the people who are involved

00:48:25.752 –> 00:48:30.192
in mass killings or, you know, quote unquote, active shooting events are on

00:48:30.192 –> 00:48:32.832
SSRIs or have been on SSRIs somewhere.

00:48:33.052 –> 00:48:38.732
And it’s sort of become like, you know, this touchstone of self-evident truth

00:48:38.732 –> 00:48:40.752
that somehow makes it not the gun’s fault.

00:48:40.852 –> 00:48:44.412
Right. Now, obviously, I don’t think mass killings are the gun’s fault,

00:48:44.492 –> 00:48:46.592
but the idea that you’re going to point at a drug.

00:48:47.459 –> 00:48:51.479
Tens of millions of Americans are on and say, well, these three people this

00:48:51.479 –> 00:48:56.459
year killed 12 people with rifles because they were on those drugs is sort of

00:48:56.459 –> 00:48:57.899
nonsensical. That’s a jump. Yeah.

00:48:58.019 –> 00:49:00.539
But at the same time, what I would say to these people is, okay,

00:49:00.559 –> 00:49:05.019
wait a minute, you’re blaming SSRIs. Do you then advocate that anyone,

00:49:05.319 –> 00:49:09.539
forget about anyone on SSRIs? Because again, I think that’s kind of nonsensical.

00:49:09.599 –> 00:49:14.339
We do know that the SSRI type drugs, these drugs to treat depression primarily,

00:49:14.599 –> 00:49:18.819
they will change your behavior, change your irritability.

00:49:19.039 –> 00:49:22.379
It even, you know, one of the side effects quite often is potential suicidal

00:49:22.379 –> 00:49:25.499
thoughts when you’re coming on or going off of them.

00:49:25.559 –> 00:49:28.779
And these, some of these drugs can take like a month for your body and your

00:49:28.779 –> 00:49:32.599
brain to adjust to being in your system and another month coming off of them.

00:49:32.679 –> 00:49:37.059
So if you’re willing to point the finger at SSRIs, are you also willing to say

00:49:37.059 –> 00:49:39.619
out loud in america that no one

00:49:39.619 –> 00:49:44.399
who goes on to or off of an ssri should carry a gun in the public space.

00:49:44.799 –> 00:49:47.539
During the first month and during that month first month

00:49:47.539 –> 00:49:50.299
after they come off it and of course everybody that’s in

00:49:50.299 –> 00:49:54.579
that camp of blame ssri’s you know quote unquote everybody they’re all going

00:49:54.579 –> 00:49:57.439
to look at me like i’m crazy and say well no i would never of course not okay

00:49:57.439 –> 00:50:02.079
well but that’s then what are you saying yeah what what and what they’re saying

00:50:02.079 –> 00:50:04.279
is they don’t have any idea what they’re saying they don’t understand the drug

00:50:04.279 –> 00:50:08.059
they don’t understand what they’re saying and the correlation versus causation issues.

00:50:08.379 –> 00:50:11.239
So go learn about it. Go talk to a mental health professional.

00:50:11.359 –> 00:50:15.499
Go figure out, by the way, ask your friends and family members how many of them

00:50:15.499 –> 00:50:18.199
have been on SSRIs at any point in their lives.

00:50:18.339 –> 00:50:22.339
And now all of a sudden, you can’t just blame SSRIs. You can’t just blame mental

00:50:22.339 –> 00:50:24.279
health. Are there mental health issues there?

00:50:24.419 –> 00:50:28.179
Almost certainly in every case, but you can’t just point a finger and say,

00:50:28.299 –> 00:50:33.159
leave us alone, blame mental health, especially if you’re working against people

00:50:33.159 –> 00:50:34.979
seeking mental health assistance.

00:50:35.599 –> 00:50:37.439
And there’s a lot of that inside of the gun industry right now.

00:50:37.499 –> 00:50:39.919
So it’s a real cognitive dissonance kind of thing. Yeah.

00:50:41.149 –> 00:50:45.709
So switching gears here again, and I know we’re, we’re, we’re growing short

00:50:45.709 –> 00:50:46.969
on time because I know you’re busy.

00:50:47.029 –> 00:50:50.469
And again, I appreciate you doing this and maybe this puts you on the spot a

00:50:50.469 –> 00:50:55.169
little bit, but I’ve been dying to ask you this, you know, it doesn’t matter.

00:50:55.209 –> 00:51:00.249
And this is my experience, but I assume others probably have something similar.

00:51:00.389 –> 00:51:06.129
It doesn’t matter where you look, social media in the news, wherever us pro gunners are.

00:51:06.129 –> 00:51:14.289
It seems to me that the largest argument that we continually to make on an ongoing

00:51:14.289 –> 00:51:23.189
daily basis is our biggest argument towards gun control and the anti-gunners, so to speak,

00:51:23.369 –> 00:51:26.549
is the Second Amendment. All you hear about a second amendment.

00:51:26.609 –> 00:51:31.629
It’s our rights. It’s our rights as our rights In your mind and in your experience.

00:51:31.929 –> 00:51:36.429
Do you think there’s another tactic that we could please take?

00:51:38.189 –> 00:51:41.449
Whether we’re and and and I guess that’s what I’m getting that whether or not

00:51:41.449 –> 00:51:45.809
we’re Yelling back at the government and the politicians or we’re trying to

00:51:45.809 –> 00:51:50.469
have a conversation with one another or with the other side Is there a way that

00:51:50.469 –> 00:51:54.789
we can move away from to a being the only damn tactic we have?

00:51:55.289 –> 00:52:01.489
Well Yes, I think it’s incredibly important and I hope that you know you use

00:52:01.489 –> 00:52:06.409
air quotes when you said only yes because it is far too often the,

00:52:08.990 –> 00:52:15.950
the default, right? It’s, it’s sort of the, the bumper sticker version of discussing gun rights.

00:52:15.990 –> 00:52:18.750
And it’s not enough, you know, no bumper sticker is really enough.

00:52:18.850 –> 00:52:23.770
Right. And so if you go back, so again, we’ll go back to, to,

00:52:23.830 –> 00:52:26.950
you know, using the Google, I wrote an article in 2017.

00:52:27.470 –> 00:52:34.990
Summer, fall, something like that, 2017 on this issue of shall not be infringed, Right.

00:52:35.070 –> 00:52:39.490
Like if all you have is shall not be infringed, then you don’t have anything.

00:52:39.630 –> 00:52:44.370
Right. Because you don’t you don’t you cannot take this incredibly complex situation

00:52:44.370 –> 00:52:50.630
and reduce it to shall not be infringed, especially not in 2017 or 2019.

00:52:50.630 –> 00:52:57.890
In 2019 if you sit here because we’re so infringed in any kind of explicit way,

00:52:58.150 –> 00:53:01.710
any explicit interpretation of that, that you’re saying shall not be infringed

00:53:01.710 –> 00:53:02.930
is now meaningless, right?

00:53:03.050 –> 00:53:06.750
You, you seem like a disconnected guy that just came down off a mountain somewhere

00:53:06.750 –> 00:53:10.850
after 200 years. And you’re like, well, it says here, you know, well, okay, great.

00:53:11.010 –> 00:53:14.490
But it also says you can own other human beings and sell them like property,

00:53:14.510 –> 00:53:16.330
you know, into these 200 years ago.

00:53:16.410 –> 00:53:19.770
So not really help and not not relevant so what’s happened

00:53:19.770 –> 00:53:22.670
well you know i always say to the to the other side like

00:53:22.670 –> 00:53:25.590
well maybe it’s just time when they say oh maybe maybe the second amendment’s out

00:53:25.590 –> 00:53:28.510
of date okay change it go ahead yeah i’ll

00:53:28.510 –> 00:53:32.370
wait you go change it there’s a process it’s been done before it could be done

00:53:32.370 –> 00:53:36.270
again and guess what in some ways this conversation would be a lot easier for

00:53:36.270 –> 00:53:40.630
both sides to have if one side wasn’t pretending it didn’t exist the second

00:53:40.630 –> 00:53:43.690
amendment the other side was pretending all we need to say is well it exists

00:53:43.690 –> 00:53:46.790
yeah because they’re both wrong You know, I mean, it does exist.

00:53:46.890 –> 00:53:51.290
And yet we are infringed. So you get into some of the crazy legal.

00:53:51.610 –> 00:53:57.830
Philosophical, political arguments of, well, why did why in that one place does

00:53:57.830 –> 00:54:02.390
it say shall not be infringed as opposed to, you know, the First Amendment doesn’t say it.

00:54:02.390 –> 00:54:05.250
The Fourth Amendment doesn’t say it. Right. Just says you have this right.

00:54:05.390 –> 00:54:09.030
But now it says the right shall not be infringed. Well, that’s it’s just an

00:54:09.030 –> 00:54:10.170
awkwardly written argument.

00:54:10.947 –> 00:54:14.567
Piece of a great document. It’s awfully convenient.

00:54:15.547 –> 00:54:21.547
It is. It’s an important piece of that writing.

00:54:21.627 –> 00:54:23.947
But again, it’s also an awkward piece of that writing.

00:54:24.087 –> 00:54:28.027
And that’s why there’s such contention over it. And that’s why books have been

00:54:28.027 –> 00:54:29.607
written about it and things like that. Right.

00:54:29.787 –> 00:54:33.707
But the problem is, shall not be infringed. It isn’t an argument. It isn’t a discussion.

00:54:34.487 –> 00:54:39.127
It’s not remotely compelling to anyone who’s already taken an anti-gun stance.

00:54:39.387 –> 00:54:44.167
There’s no way to you’re going to change someone’s mind. Like there’s no one in 2019.

00:54:44.327 –> 00:54:47.387
It’s saying, I think we should have mandatory licensing for guns.

00:54:47.467 –> 00:54:50.307
And you’re like, Hey, did you not, you know, there’s a second amendment that

00:54:50.307 –> 00:54:53.267
says our right to keep and bear shall not be infringed.

00:54:53.287 –> 00:54:56.547
And they’re going to be like, Oh, I did not know that. Thank you.

00:54:56.547 –> 00:55:00.187
I retract my earlier suggestion.

00:55:00.427 –> 00:55:03.167
You know, that is not going to have the person who’s making the argument about,

00:55:03.187 –> 00:55:06.747
well, guns, you need a license to drive a car. Why don’t you need a license to have a gun?

00:55:06.927 –> 00:55:10.087
They, they are not, they don’t care about the Second Amendment.

00:55:10.187 –> 00:55:14.107
And you can go to a civics class kind of like you should care about the Second

00:55:14.107 –> 00:55:18.047
Amendment level, except it’s not compelling to a modern human being.

00:55:18.167 –> 00:55:20.127
So it’s just not going to work.

00:55:20.327 –> 00:55:27.407
So we really need to know that while we, the Second Amendment advocates and

00:55:27.407 –> 00:55:28.867
gun right advocates, should not.

00:55:29.941 –> 00:55:36.901
Ever give any quarter on the idea that we’re willing to suspend the second amendment right,

00:55:37.401 –> 00:55:41.081
absolutely we also have to understand it we will never end or win a conversation

00:55:41.081 –> 00:55:46.121
with the second amendment but you know what it’s bottom line but it’s almost

00:55:46.121 –> 00:55:50.161
so prolific within the gun community i think it’s just gotten to the point where

00:55:50.161 –> 00:55:53.381
we’re rah-rah-ing ourselves right it’s like we’re trying to get ourselves fired

00:55:53.381 –> 00:55:56.181
up because no one else is looking at and going and second amendment.

00:55:56.281 –> 00:55:59.961
Oh, all right. Well, it’s cool. If you guys have guns, I didn’t know that to

00:55:59.961 –> 00:56:04.221
your point, right? It’s like, we’re, we’re talking to ourselves and no one else is listening.

00:56:04.341 –> 00:56:09.621
So, you know, what, what is the conversation we need to be having with the folks

00:56:09.621 –> 00:56:13.161
that maybe are interested in being swayed one way or the other,

00:56:13.201 –> 00:56:15.461
at least open-minded enough to have the conversation.

00:56:16.641 –> 00:56:21.161
Yeah, it’s there. And we have to be open-minded enough to have the conversation

00:56:21.161 –> 00:56:25.781
before we can begin to engage the other people that might be as well. And they are there.

00:56:26.061 –> 00:56:29.961
And that’s why I asked, I hope you use their quotes when you said the only argument

00:56:29.961 –> 00:56:34.681
we have, because there are a lot of us who are making other arguments and having

00:56:34.681 –> 00:56:39.061
other discussions with people who lean pro gun control.

00:56:39.441 –> 00:56:44.981
And I always say there’s this gun responsibility is the coin.

00:56:45.061 –> 00:56:49.081
And on one side, you’ve got gun rights and the other side, you’ve got gun control.

00:56:49.461 –> 00:56:54.181
But if everybody really just agrees on the responsible execution of our gun

00:56:54.181 –> 00:56:58.101
rights, I don’t think those sides would really be that far off.

00:56:58.261 –> 00:57:05.481
It’s the people that are in it for the rhetoric or locked into an extreme mode of combativeness.

00:57:06.001 –> 00:57:08.281
They’re not going to talk to each other anyway. And as you said,

00:57:08.361 –> 00:57:10.921
they’re really just in an echo chamber somewhere to begin with.

00:57:11.838 –> 00:57:15.938
Well, Rob, this has been great. I really appreciate your time and your effort.

00:57:16.038 –> 00:57:20.678
I think when I reached out to you initially to do this with me,

00:57:20.738 –> 00:57:22.438
I said, I was honest with you and straightforward.

00:57:22.718 –> 00:57:26.558
I said, I’m pretty sure it’s going to benefit us more than you,

00:57:26.678 –> 00:57:30.398
but I think it’s still another great opportunity to get some good information out there.

00:57:30.518 –> 00:57:33.278
And I think we’ve gotten a little bit out there today for folks,

00:57:33.378 –> 00:57:37.758
hopefully to take away a nugget or two. If you want to know more about ICE training

00:57:37.758 –> 00:57:42.338
with Rob, you can go to icetraining.us.

00:57:43.178 –> 00:57:47.098
And if you’re interested in learning more about Walk the Talk America,

00:57:47.338 –> 00:57:50.078
you can go to walkthetalkamerica.org.

00:57:50.138 –> 00:57:52.858
And I think everybody should take an opportunity to go out there and see what

00:57:52.858 –> 00:57:56.218
that organization is starting to try to do for us. I think it’s great.

00:57:56.938 –> 00:57:59.678
So, yeah, I appreciate you being on here, Rob.

00:58:00.498 –> 00:58:03.478
I appreciate you having me on. It’s a great opportunity. You know,

00:58:03.478 –> 00:58:07.118
not only the benefit that hopefully some people are going to get from hearing

00:58:07.118 –> 00:58:08.678
this, but I just I enjoyed the conversation.

00:58:08.898 –> 00:58:12.538
And, you know, you asked some great questions and made some great points that

00:58:12.538 –> 00:58:16.838
helped me further evaluate, you know, my own position on some of these things

00:58:16.838 –> 00:58:19.918
and my own thoughts about, you know, even the principles of my own company.

00:58:20.018 –> 00:58:23.818
Every time someone challenges or asks questions about it or makes an observation

00:58:23.818 –> 00:58:28.058
about it, it helps me understand them more and maybe articulate them better

00:58:28.058 –> 00:58:30.018
to other people. So thank you for that opportunity.

00:58:30.338 –> 00:58:33.018
Absolutely. And that’s it. Thanks for listening.

00:58:34.160 –> 00:58:52.699
Music.