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Music.

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Hello and welcome to another episode of the Self-Initiative Project Podcast.

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I’m your host, Jim O’Brien. Welcome to episode 14.

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This time we’re going to be talking with Van Seeley again about gun training.

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If you remember back episode four of our podcast, we talked about training versus gear.

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And if you haven’t checked out that podcast, I would highly recommend that.

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But Van’s back with us to discuss training, the ins and outs,

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and what to do, what not to do, and kind of his experience in firearms training.

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Hey, Van, welcome back. Hey, good morning. How are you, sir?

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I’m pretty good, thank you.

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It’s already been 10 episodes, and that’s about a year since we’ve done the

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first one almost because we try to put these out about once a month.

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So that’s kind of cool that we’re exactly 10 later. We’re back to talk more about gun training.

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You know, we’re hoping folks will go back and listen to Episode 4,

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But for those who have not or won’t get around to it and they’re listening to

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this one, I want you to kind of tell us a little bit about yourself,

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what your background is, and then specifically what your background,

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history, and experience is in gun training and the types that you’ve done, etc. et cetera?

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Okay. So I joined the Marine Corps in 92, ended up trying to get into recon,

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thought that was the best thing.

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Cool guys jumping out of airplanes, diving, shooting people,

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all that kind of cool stuff.

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So that’s where I ended up working my way into from a recon battalion to a force recon unit.

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Ended up doing several years as a special operations training group,

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CQB instructor, demolitions and sniper instructor.

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And then my last four years, I did a tour with the Army as a ranger instructor

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because Marine Corps recon guys from time to time, they’d send them to ranger school.

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So I was able to get that job. Not many Marines are able to become instructors there.

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So that was a neat tour duty for me. And then I just finished off a career 20 years.

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Retired up here in Dahlonega initially, and then now live in Flowery Branch.

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So that’s me in a nutshell. And after retirement, ended up wanting to get into firearms instruction.

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Teaching all the things that Marine Corps taught me and that I was blessed to experience and learn.

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And I wanted to pass that knowledge out to the civilian side of the house and

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then ended up in retail, which which was kind of a side shift from what I wanted,

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but it was retail and a gun store and a gun range.

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And then ended up in a managerial position and trying to kind of develop or

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evolve our training program and shooting at shooting events and that kind of stuff.

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So, you know, now with all things being what it is,

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you know, kind of slow down on the instructing side

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of that because of life

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and hobbies and time and work and all those all

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those things but training is definitely true to my heart for sure yeah i could

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imagine training takes up a big chunk of your time if you’re going to do it

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regularly for for the public yeah the difficulty with training is you know for

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as an instructor is you got to be able to train people when they’re not working.

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So it’s, you’ve got to do it on typically on when you’re not working also,

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which means on your free time or days off. So, right.

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That’s tough because you need some downtime for yourself, certainly.

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So you mentioned, you know, wanting to impart the knowledge that you had picked

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up in the Marine Corps to the civilian world is, was that kind of your motivation?

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What was it that you just like teaching that much

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or i i really did like it didn’t

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matter what it was what i was teaching i always like

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to see people learn a

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skill or take whatever from nothing and then watch their progression i mean

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i guess it’s a you know a fatherly thing i guess i don’t i don’t know how to

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explain it it’s just it’s a good feeling to be able to pass information on and

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pass knowledge on and people actually,

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it betters their lives or whatever their goals are, you know,

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you just made them better.

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And if you can save a life through your knowledge, information,

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or instruction, then that’s, I mean, that’s an amazing blessing for sure.

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That’s icing on the cake. Yeah, I completely understand what you’re saying.

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And I kind of enjoy what little bit I’ve done for the the same reasons as well.

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Talking about the types of training and how that transfers over to the civilian market or arena.

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How did you go about deciding what needed to get taught? Did you see a gap or

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was it that you just kind of had a program in mind that you wanted to do?

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And talk to us a little bit what that program or what types of programs you’ve

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typically put on and produced for the civilian industry market.

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Well, I had a difficult time in the beginning because, you know,

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in the Marine Corps, you’re teaching, you know, it’s force recon,

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MARSOC, special operations guys.

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They’re the, you know, the alphas of the alphas and they are tough to teach

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because they are already so knowledgeable.

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You know, if you get a fresh guy that’s new into a unit, it’s one thing.

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But you’re teaching some stuff that are hardcore based skills beyond,

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you know, with the mastery of those types of skills.

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And then they’re learning just some great things, but there’s still there.

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They have mastered baseline fundamentals.

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You know, they’re doing all the cool stuff, you know, blowing up door breaching

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doors, you know, taking shots that, you know, 1500 yards, you know,

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a high angle side of a mountain and all these other high end skill sets.

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So for me, that was a transition that was difficult because you get the civilian

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that wants to be that and wants to learn those types.

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They want to kick in doors like on day two or learn how to clear and close a

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room with their family, their three kids on a stack in the hallway ready to

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clear after a home invasion. Yeah.

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You know, it’s just or they want to shoot like, you know, Jerry Mikulik and,

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you know, after two hours of instruction.

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So that that was a tough transition for me as to building a curriculum that made sense.

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And what did I want to be? Did I want to be the intro instructor?

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Did I want to be the, let’s take it to the next level of mastery of fundamentals?

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Or did I want to just teach all the cool, fun stuff and put people…

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Lives in danger because all three exist in the

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firearms industry instructing and

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there’s instructors that teach it

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all there’s instructors that stick to certain you know certain demographics

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of those types of people that want to learn basics want to learn immediate and

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i i hope his basic instruction was kind of it to me but i found unless you had

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a solid baseline instruction instruction,

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you were going to struggle with my classes on the intermediate level.

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And that’s why I kind of designed skill builder classes when I was teaching.

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I didn’t want to teach, you know, you know, four man room clears and how to

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do a wounded, you know, weak hand, press check of your handgun while doing a speed reload.

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And, you know, all these things are, they have purpose, but you got to look at your.

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Student and what they’re coming there for, because certain classes will definitely

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draw certain types of people in a good way and a bad way. Sure.

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But, you know, my takeaway from all that, what you just said is that fundamentals

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and basics are still key to training.

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And I guess the other part that races through my mind is in both arenas,

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you probably had quite a bit or had the potential for quite a bit of ego that

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you had to deal with, which makes teaching instruction that much more difficult as well.

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Yeah. Well, I mean, we took like when I was a special operations training group,

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I taught force recon guys.

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I taught guys that taught me, you know, except full circle that student student

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becomes the instructor and instructor teaches a student.

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And it, you know, it just keeps going around and around.

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And we also taught basic guys. We taught basic grunts because they were going

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to be attached to that type of unit in a support position.

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And they had to be able to get in the stack and do everything, a force recon guy.

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But I told people, I said, you need to teach a monkey how to shoot.

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And that’s no offense to monkeys or humans, but it’s not a difficult thing.

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The difficult thing is the student.

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That is where the hiccup becomes because nothing you’re teaching is so difficult to do.

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It’s just, can that person apply those types of things?

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Reaching them in a way that they learn. Right. And that’s what I think instructing,

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you look at all instructors, I think all the courses evolve,

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some for good reasons, others for vanity reasons, and some because the market

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just is supply and demand.

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Man, you know, if you’re just teaching a basic NRA pistol course,

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then those are the types of people you’re going to draw in.

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Is that the, is that the demographic you’re trying to pull in or,

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or do you want these guys that,

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you know, they show up with their body armor and their multicam and their tactical

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this and 14 and a half pound, you know, ARs that have so much crap on them,

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but they don’t know how to use any of it, but it looked really cool.

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It looked really cool in call of duty. So wide range of student types for sure,

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based on the classes that you’re offering up.

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So, so circling back to episode four real quick, I don’t want to give away the

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conclusion, although, you know, it was centered around, should you spend your

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time and money and energy on gear or training?

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And the conclusion is probably pretty straightforward for folks.

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So that kind of brings us to, to this point.

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Why should someone seek out training just versus going to the range and trying

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to continue shooting for themselves?

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Why is training and practicing and getting into classes so important from your perspective?

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It comes down to the individual. Some people can watch a video and take it all

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in with no interaction with an instructor,

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no feedback from an instructor and just apply it.

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Most of us can’t do that.

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It’s not like Ikea furniture, like A goes to B, B goes to C, C goes to D.

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Then you’re like, I don’t know how the hell that go. And you get the wrong sequence

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and you don’t know why it’s not working. And then you got to call customer support.

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Well, instructors are customer support. They’re there to give you that direct

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feedback, be it good or bad, you know, they’re not going to pat you on the back

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and say, hey, that, you know, that 20 inch shot group you did at three yards.

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Good try, buddy. No, why, why is it that bad?

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So if you’re not understanding certain mechanics, especially being new to a

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skill, you got to get, you got to get training. You need instruction.

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After that instruction, after you find out why that process is done the way

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it is, then you can get on the range and then you can apply those things.

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And then because you have a better understanding, then you can start tweaking

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that specific skill or technique,

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for your body type or your weapon type or your situation because certain way

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to do things may not be the exact same way at night.

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You know, in your room three o’clock in the morning when somebody kicked in

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the front door and you try to shoot one round and all of a sudden,

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oh crap, I didn’t have a round in the chamber.

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Well, I need to put a round in the chamber. Well, I don’t know how to do that

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because I can’t see, you know, how to rack the slot, whatever the case, you know?

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So you got to get out there. You got to do both.

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I think if you don’t, I don’t think you can get to your full potential,

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but that’s not everybody.

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There’s always that 1% that would just exceed in anything they do.

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And they are frustrating because I’m not part of that 1%. I have to be taught

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something and then apply it and then practice it and keep practicing it because it’s all perishing.

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Yeah, and I think the importance of training really comes into play if you’re

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going to try to use a firearm in a defensive manner or if you’re going to carry

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concealed or whatever it may be on your person for self-defense, right?

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Training becomes even that much more important to seek out.

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But the one point that you made that I wanted to circle back on real quick that

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I think is key is that once you do go get training,

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formalized training where an instructor can be your customer support representative

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as you’re going through that process,

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the training doesn’t end there.

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It’s not like take one seminar and then set your firearms aside and don’t touch

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them for another six months after you’ve learned those skills that you’ve picked

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up in that class or that course seminar,

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whatever you want to call it, you know, it’s, it’s important that you go and

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those skills that you took away to go and practice and train on them on your

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own accord to get better at them and begin to see what they mean for you and

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how you’ve got to adjust for yourself and all those sorts of things.

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The training doesn’t stop after the class.

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And that’s, I think that’s It’s important for people to hear too.

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Yeah, absolutely. You’ve got to keep doing things like some people can,

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you know, it’s like riding a motorcycle,

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I guess you rode 20 years ago and then you’re going to buy the latest and greatest

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motorcycle and get on the road and go, go up and go up into the mountain,

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go zipping around the mountains. You’re probably going to end up having an accident.

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So you have to get out there and learn because that’s how you get better.

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That’s how you get faster.

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That’s how you become more accurate is you don’t do it through osmosis.

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You don’t do it through reading a book.

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You actually, with physical action, you have to practice it.

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And if you don’t understand concepts, you talk, you know, home invasion, like, what do you do?

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Well, there’s multiple things you can do in a home invasion.

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It all depends on how your home is set up. It depends on where you are during a home invasion.

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It depends on so many aspects. Was it daytime?

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Was it nighttime? Was it one person? Was it 12 people? You know,

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and if you’re not understanding things conceptually, you don’t know how to apply

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those skills at the right time.

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And all those various scenarios that could occur.

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Your philosophies, your personal philosophies when you are trying to train someone

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or you’re teaching a class,

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what are your philosophies towards training in general that have worked for

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you or that have evolved or even changed or just didn’t work?

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And like I said before, it was a tough transition for me to train people that

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were extremely knowledgeable already or they were an open book and they were teachable.

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Getting into the civilian side of things, I think a lot of folks I found out

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didn’t know as much as they thought they knew.

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So I had to change my tone because, you know, being a Marine Corps force recon,

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typically very, they’re alpha male, but they’re very, you know,

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it’s like everybody’s first name basis.

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It’s professional, but it’s, you have an immersion in a relationship with that

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student already for whatever reason, guys have deployed before,

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whatever. You don’t really have that relationship a lot of times.

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Let’s get a repeat student or like when I was running skill builders,

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you would see the same student go through the continue that,

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you know, the next step process.

00:16:55.365 –> 00:16:56.425
So for me.

00:16:58.159 –> 00:17:02.959
I had to kind of slow things down and I’m not saying dumb things down,

00:17:03.099 –> 00:17:11.299
but speak in a different manner with, and stop assuming that,

00:17:11.319 –> 00:17:15.099
you know what I’m talking about when I say something really quick and like,

00:17:15.759 –> 00:17:20.979
how do you not know what slide lock is if you’re taking a handgun class?

00:17:21.239 –> 00:17:27.139
And I, I taught basic years ago, like NRA certification kind of thing, check the block.

00:17:27.819 –> 00:17:30.959
Great and i got away from basic because

00:17:30.959 –> 00:17:34.359
i i didn’t feel that was my niche that was my passion

00:17:34.359 –> 00:17:40.639
i wanted to get those people to shoot you don’t learn that really in a basic

00:17:40.639 –> 00:17:45.399
in a right class you know you learn basic safety and what a primary is and all

00:17:45.399 –> 00:17:50.739
this other stuff you learn how to shoot in an intermediate class and what i

00:17:50.739 –> 00:17:53.979
would call an intermediate class like the skill builder classes that I took.

00:17:54.059 –> 00:17:59.479
So I had to learn how to tone things down, not make assumptions and,

00:17:59.539 –> 00:18:04.579
and not think about trying to jam, you know, 10 pounds of poo in a five pound bag.

00:18:04.839 –> 00:18:08.999
I had to think of it as a stepping stone.

00:18:09.159 –> 00:18:13.179
Like let’s do phase one, then phase two, then phase three, then phase four,

00:18:13.219 –> 00:18:18.019
whatever, and not get ahead of myself just because when you’re wired,

00:18:18.079 –> 00:18:21.119
you know, training like spec ops guys,

00:18:21.659 –> 00:18:26.099
you’ve got a lot of stuff you’ve got to jam in a five-week shooting package.

00:18:27.259 –> 00:18:31.139
That’s not just individually based, it’s team-based, it’s platoon-based.

00:18:32.059 –> 00:18:37.119
So you’ve got to do a lot quickly and it’s heavy, hard, 110 miles an hour.

00:18:37.239 –> 00:18:41.859
So I had to change that. My philosophy there was slow things down,

00:18:42.559 –> 00:18:48.099
not rush, get back to the basics, get back to basic draw, basic presentation, basic trigger control.

00:18:48.699 –> 00:18:51.739
Because if you start racing,

00:18:52.434 –> 00:18:55.294
fast, if you start pushing the envelope,

00:18:55.594 –> 00:19:00.154
that’s when accidents happen because they don’t have the baseline safety there,

00:19:00.274 –> 00:19:05.214
you know, okay, shoot two to the torso and in a second and a half from the holster,

00:19:05.294 –> 00:19:09.254
you know, at five yards, they’re like, they can’t even get out of the holster in five yards.

00:19:09.334 –> 00:19:12.774
And you wonder why they they’re not hitting the target because you went too

00:19:12.774 –> 00:19:16.734
fast too soon because they didn’t have the basics of a basic draw.

00:19:16.854 –> 00:19:20.394
They didn’t have the basics of, you know, trigger control.

00:19:20.934 –> 00:19:23.974
And now you’re doing trigger control in the compressed time.

00:19:24.094 –> 00:19:30.294
So I kind of had to change the way I was bringing in students and training them.

00:19:30.474 –> 00:19:37.774
And on the other side was you can’t put most civilians through an eight-hour

00:19:37.774 –> 00:19:41.054
training class, an eight-hour shooting class, because you will have people at

00:19:41.054 –> 00:19:45.174
the end of the day mentally checked out because it’s so much information.

00:19:45.834 –> 00:19:50.294
It’s very taxing on the body and the mind. And most people aren’t physically,

00:19:50.774 –> 00:19:52.854
and mentally fit for that.

00:19:52.954 –> 00:19:56.654
They don’t, you know, when’s the last time you went through a hardcore eight

00:19:56.654 –> 00:20:00.914
hour training course? I mean, you’ve trained, you’ve trained Krav and other martial arts.

00:20:01.134 –> 00:20:04.834
If you do that for eight hours, you’re going to be sleeping for the next two days.

00:20:04.874 –> 00:20:09.294
And you probably didn’t retain the latter half of that training class because you’re,

00:20:09.294 –> 00:20:12.794
you’re mentally so taxed yeah definitely

00:20:12.794 –> 00:20:15.794
definitely but you make a good point too that even

00:20:15.794 –> 00:20:18.714
in the as you begin to progress through the different levels

00:20:18.714 –> 00:20:24.454
of training you know from the basics of safety and how to hold a firearm and

00:20:24.454 –> 00:20:28.454
here are the different parts of the ammunition and here’s the different parts

00:20:28.454 –> 00:20:33.334
of the gun itself even when you begin to progress into learning how to shoot

00:20:33.334 –> 00:20:37.914
more there’s still fundamentals and basics at that level right to your point you made,

00:20:38.054 –> 00:20:40.214
like, you know, the exercise of

00:20:40.214 –> 00:20:45.174
drawing from holster and getting two shots center mass or whatever it is.

00:20:45.674 –> 00:20:49.734
First of all, have you ever drawn from a holster before? So you got to start there, right?

00:20:49.794 –> 00:20:54.054
And work your way through the, through the levels as you go and,

00:20:54.114 –> 00:20:58.114
and try not to give them too much at the same time at all at once.

00:20:58.594 –> 00:21:02.114
Yeah. And yeah, you, you have to do it in steps.

00:21:02.214 –> 00:21:07.754
And I kind of, I fall back to, I took a Glock armor course and the one of the

00:21:07.754 –> 00:21:11.234
first things the block armor says is do not get ahead of me.

00:21:11.852 –> 00:21:17.332
And the guy’s not even five minutes into a class, and you hear somebody banging

00:21:17.332 –> 00:21:21.092
on something, and you look back, and you’re like, dude, what are you doing?

00:21:21.192 –> 00:21:25.172
He’s just talking about the different parts of the handgun, and you’re already

00:21:25.172 –> 00:21:26.452
disassembling the handgun.

00:21:26.572 –> 00:21:31.092
Yeah. And, you know, the instructor’s looking at him like, we’re not even there yet, bud.

00:21:31.152 –> 00:21:37.872
Just let’s slow things down, you know? And that part of the learning curve for

00:21:37.872 –> 00:21:40.952
an instructor and a student is you’ve got to have that relationship.

00:21:40.952 –> 00:21:45.272
Relationship, but the, you may not understand the pieces of the puzzle.

00:21:45.472 –> 00:21:48.172
It’s kind of, you know, I think I’ve mentioned this before, you know,

00:21:48.192 –> 00:21:51.832
it’s those weird, weird pictures in which when you stare at it,

00:21:51.872 –> 00:21:53.352
you don’t know what it is.

00:21:53.412 –> 00:21:56.812
And then you kind of unfocus and then you’re like, oh, that’s a ship on the

00:21:56.812 –> 00:21:59.152
ocean. You know, it’s like a, it’s a puzzle.

00:21:59.292 –> 00:22:02.472
When you start putting pieces of the puzzle together, you may not even know

00:22:02.472 –> 00:22:08.852
what the picture is yet, but, but respect Expect the process because there has to be a process.

00:22:09.172 –> 00:22:15.552
And if there isn’t, then you can mechanically or train yourself incorrectly

00:22:15.552 –> 00:22:18.212
and get some really bad habits.

00:22:18.252 –> 00:22:22.952
And then it just gets worse and worse and more difficult to fix those bad habits.

00:22:23.092 –> 00:22:27.892
Because now relearning something is one of the most difficult things to do.

00:22:27.972 –> 00:22:31.052
It’s easy when it’s a clean slate. You know, it’s like artwork.

00:22:31.292 –> 00:22:35.692
If it’s a blank canvas, you can paint whatever picture you want. Yeah.

00:22:35.872 –> 00:22:40.592
If there’s already a picture there, you got to paint over the picture to make a new picture.

00:22:40.692 –> 00:22:43.592
And that’s very difficult to do. It takes a lot of pain. Yeah.

00:22:43.692 –> 00:22:49.212
So that is a great segue into this next question that I wanted to ask you, which came to mind.

00:22:49.852 –> 00:22:55.032
What issues do you typically see with students that might prevent them from

00:22:55.032 –> 00:22:56.932
getting the most from training?

00:22:57.112 –> 00:23:02.092
Is it that they already come with preconceived notions or a skill set they think

00:23:02.092 –> 00:23:04.492
they already have? What is it that…

00:23:05.163 –> 00:23:10.243
Maybe holds them back from getting the most out of, out of a course, do you think?

00:23:10.863 –> 00:23:14.723
Yeah. Yeah. I wrote some kind of keynotes down here. I think a big,

00:23:14.723 –> 00:23:19.043
a big one is that the couple mentality, you already know everything.

00:23:19.223 –> 00:23:23.183
You’re just there for, you know, some trigger time or some, you’re,

00:23:23.183 –> 00:23:26.563
you need to check and check a blog with your department or whatever.

00:23:27.543 –> 00:23:32.803
That one, if I ever got students that, you know, I, I, you try to put input

00:23:32.803 –> 00:23:38.243
into them, You try to fine tune the things that you see they’re doing either

00:23:38.243 –> 00:23:41.863
mechanically incorrect or they could be doing a little bit better.

00:23:42.763 –> 00:23:47.063
Once they once I get that cup full mentality, they’re not going to correct anything.

00:23:47.583 –> 00:23:52.183
My time as an instructor is going to now be invested in the rest of the class,

00:23:52.383 –> 00:23:56.323
you know, and and I’ve had students say, well, you didn’t spend a lot of time

00:23:56.323 –> 00:23:58.643
with me. Well, one of two reasons.

00:23:58.763 –> 00:24:03.863
You either didn’t listen to anything I had to say, sidebar conversations while

00:24:03.863 –> 00:24:08.863
I’m trying to teach, or I try to make a correction based off of what I’m teaching.

00:24:09.123 –> 00:24:13.043
You just go back to what you’re doing because that’s what you want to do.

00:24:13.243 –> 00:24:15.723
You don’t follow the drills. You don’t follow commands.

00:24:16.423 –> 00:24:19.403
Yet, I’ve got other people that actually care to be here.

00:24:19.743 –> 00:24:22.603
So I’m going to go invest my time with those other folks.

00:24:22.603 –> 00:24:30.123
Books old habits like i said repainting the canvas difficult thing but it’s difficult only because,

00:24:30.943 –> 00:24:36.583
under a lot of times people personally or they individually personally stress

00:24:36.583 –> 00:24:41.683
out for whatever reason you put a shot timer next to their ear all of a sudden

00:24:41.683 –> 00:24:45.883
that technique you just taught goes out the window it goes out the window and

00:24:45.883 –> 00:24:47.903
they they default back to what they’ve been doing.

00:24:49.043 –> 00:24:52.083
That’s a tough one to break as long as,

00:24:53.182 –> 00:24:56.582
You can get them to understand, hey, you just did this. No, I didn’t.

00:24:56.582 –> 00:24:59.042
Yeah, you did. I just watched you do that. Okay.

00:25:00.062 –> 00:25:03.722
Let’s slow things down.

00:25:04.762 –> 00:25:07.322
Attitude. You got to have a good attitude going in.

00:25:08.782 –> 00:25:16.482
I’ve had days where training jujitsu or crab or whatever, you have a bad day.

00:25:17.742 –> 00:25:21.382
Sometimes your head’s not in it. You got to walk away. You know,

00:25:21.422 –> 00:25:24.362
don’t run just for the sake of running.

00:25:24.462 –> 00:25:28.722
You know, if it’s crappy weather, then you’re putting yourself out there.

00:25:28.762 –> 00:25:31.982
You’re going to do yourself more harm than good. So you got to have a good attitude.

00:25:32.242 –> 00:25:35.162
Not being prepared. That’s that’s mental and physical.

00:25:35.642 –> 00:25:39.822
I think, unfortunately, in this country, we’re not as physically fit as we should be.

00:25:39.822 –> 00:25:42.922
Yeah especially these days yeah yeah so

00:25:42.922 –> 00:25:45.702
and like i said an eight-hour training class is

00:25:45.702 –> 00:25:48.622
very taxing physically and mentally and some

00:25:48.622 –> 00:25:51.322
people if you you got crap going going on in your

00:25:51.322 –> 00:25:54.582
life and your head’s not into it but not

00:25:54.582 –> 00:25:58.782
prepared is also not having the right equipment hey show up for class it’s this

00:25:58.782 –> 00:26:03.862
class we’re going to shoot about you know three three hundred rounds max so

00:26:03.862 –> 00:26:08.582
what would i do i’d bring 500 rounds because you never know you know who’s who

00:26:08.582 –> 00:26:12.382
says they’re They’re going to have extra ammo at the training class I’m going to.

00:26:13.608 –> 00:26:18.148
And not having a prerequisite. Yeah, a lot of people get all huffy about.

00:26:18.348 –> 00:26:23.348
Well, they said I need this certification or I need proof that I took this class

00:26:23.348 –> 00:26:26.388
and I did 20 years in the military. I know what the hell I’m doing.

00:26:26.508 –> 00:26:30.368
I hate to break it to you, but I’ve served with plenty of people that had 20

00:26:30.368 –> 00:26:33.328
years in the military that had no idea what the hell they were doing with a firearm.

00:26:33.328 –> 00:26:36.768
So prerequisites are

00:26:36.768 –> 00:26:39.748
out there for a reason and it’s for both the

00:26:39.748 –> 00:26:42.908
instructors your safety the other student’s

00:26:42.908 –> 00:26:46.408
safety and the instructor safety and there

00:26:46.408 –> 00:26:51.028
also might be requirements an instructor has to have on an insurance level that

00:26:51.028 –> 00:27:01.348
you know it is what it is you know if you say that you know I had my evolution

00:27:01.348 –> 00:27:05.628
in teaching and what I was teaching and what my prerequisites were.

00:27:05.808 –> 00:27:10.488
I didn’t really have many prerequisites until I started my skill builder courses

00:27:10.488 –> 00:27:19.028
because I got to know what you’re coming in with because I got to know what I can provide you.

00:27:19.028 –> 00:27:21.908
You if i’m teaching a class and

00:27:21.908 –> 00:27:24.868
we’re getting into like a skill builder three where there’s

00:27:24.868 –> 00:27:28.248
shooting and moving and drawing and reloading on

00:27:28.248 –> 00:27:35.428
the move and or in and around barricades and you can barely understand the fly

00:27:35.428 –> 00:27:40.848
lock and a standard reload is right you know that’s it’s beyond your skill level

00:27:40.848 –> 00:27:45.048
so you gotta have a little out of place you gotta have something thing,

00:27:45.048 –> 00:27:46.588
even for basic handgun class.

00:27:47.448 –> 00:27:53.788
There’s prerequisites for basic handgun class, like can you sit still and stay

00:27:53.788 –> 00:27:57.268
off your phone for four hours and listen to the instructor?

00:27:57.388 –> 00:27:59.948
Can you actually listen to an instructor?

00:28:00.228 –> 00:28:03.168
I’ve had women call, well, I want a female instructor.

00:28:04.328 –> 00:28:08.628
Why? Can you not listen to a male instructor?

00:28:08.868 –> 00:28:12.428
Is there some sort of barrier? Because a male instructor.

00:28:13.914 –> 00:28:18.214
A good instructor doesn’t matter gender. I’ve seen some really good male instructors,

00:28:18.454 –> 00:28:21.934
and I’ve seen some crappy ones, and I’ve seen some really good female instructors,

00:28:21.954 –> 00:28:23.134
and I’ve seen some crappy ones.

00:28:23.554 –> 00:28:29.374
So, you know, that student-instructor, it’s a relationship.

00:28:30.494 –> 00:28:34.194
So you’ve got to have that. So you both have to give a little and take a little.

00:28:34.334 –> 00:28:38.114
But you make a really good point that, you know, not only just from a skill

00:28:38.114 –> 00:28:42.114
set and what you’re capable of doing in a class, If you’re skipping classes

00:28:42.114 –> 00:28:46.194
that are suggested prior to taking a specific level,

00:28:46.354 –> 00:28:52.274
there’s a real safety issue potentially in trying to skip and have students

00:28:52.274 –> 00:28:55.674
coming into a, if you call it skill level three,

00:28:55.794 –> 00:29:01.894
when they don’t have the basics and foundations of what it’s even like to shoot

00:29:01.894 –> 00:29:07.054
next to or in between others that have guns, live guns,

00:29:07.314 –> 00:29:10.334
loaded guns on either side of them, right?

00:29:10.654 –> 00:29:14.694
So it’s a safety issue. If nothing else, forget the skills and them not knowing

00:29:14.694 –> 00:29:16.614
what they’re doing, although that’s a major issue.

00:29:16.694 –> 00:29:21.194
Just the potential for there being safety issues is a reason why you need to.

00:29:21.634 –> 00:29:25.694
There’s a reason why you should progress through training and start with the

00:29:25.694 –> 00:29:29.354
basics and work your way up to those advanced classes, even though you think

00:29:29.354 –> 00:29:31.214
you may have a handle on the fundamentals.

00:29:31.974 –> 00:29:34.674
There’s a reason why you need to be going through the progression.

00:29:34.774 –> 00:29:38.634
And I think the safety is a is a key point of why you want to do that.

00:29:38.634 –> 00:29:46.074
Not just for you as a student, but for the instructor and the other members in the class as well.

00:29:46.694 –> 00:29:50.334
Yeah, definitely. I mean, I taught a class where I was downrange,

00:29:50.494 –> 00:29:52.354
standing in front of students.

00:29:52.374 –> 00:29:55.994
And students aren’t used to, like, they have a loaded gun in the holster,

00:29:56.014 –> 00:29:58.954
and I’m standing in front of them between them and the target,

00:29:59.014 –> 00:30:03.014
not while they’re shooting, but just teaching a period of instruction because

00:30:03.014 –> 00:30:04.234
I want to stand in front of them.

00:30:05.065 –> 00:30:10.645
And, you know, I have one guy draw his gun out because he wants to check to see if it’s loaded.

00:30:10.825 –> 00:30:15.385
I’m like, dude, like that. That’s day one.

00:30:15.825 –> 00:30:20.125
Even my teenager knows you don’t do that.

00:30:20.245 –> 00:30:25.045
Like, what were you thinking? thinking, because they didn’t have a basic understanding,

00:30:25.225 –> 00:30:28.025
a basic respect for the four safety rules.

00:30:28.265 –> 00:30:32.725
And every time I would teach my class, I’d always start out with the four basic safety rules.

00:30:32.865 –> 00:30:37.665
But it became a mantra of, okay, treat every farm as if it were loaded,

00:30:37.725 –> 00:30:39.285
even after you’re sure to be unloaded.

00:30:39.305 –> 00:30:41.525
You don’t ever point a farm into anything you’re not intended to shoot,

00:30:41.605 –> 00:30:42.545
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:30:42.965 –> 00:30:46.925
And people, they’ve already tuned that out. They’re like, oh, I know them.

00:30:47.225 –> 00:30:52.345
But you just violated it. So don’t tell me you know it. But you don’t. You need to apply it.

00:30:52.365 –> 00:30:57.625
You may know of them, but you let’s let’s break it down as to why you do these

00:30:57.625 –> 00:30:59.485
or why you don’t do these things. Yeah.

00:31:00.265 –> 00:31:04.285
But that’s you’re going to get that. Yeah. You know, every class I’ve had,

00:31:04.345 –> 00:31:07.305
I don’t think I’ve had 10 students out of all 10.

00:31:07.365 –> 00:31:14.325
I don’t think I’ve had, you know, one student that didn’t at one point do something unsafe. safe.

00:31:14.705 –> 00:31:20.045
Fortunately, you know, we have multiple safeties involved, multiple,

00:31:20.125 –> 00:31:23.525
you know, overlaps that nobody ever got hurt.

00:31:23.645 –> 00:31:29.745
You know, I’ve had several negligent discharges in training classes with students.

00:31:29.965 –> 00:31:37.985
I’ve had one student shoot himself in the leg reholstering during a shooting event.

00:31:37.985 –> 00:31:41.365
Then so and competent shooter but

00:31:41.365 –> 00:31:44.865
in a certain situation in a certain environment that he

00:31:44.865 –> 00:31:47.625
personally was stressed out and i could already tell that

00:31:47.625 –> 00:31:51.325
you know his head wasn’t in the game already he had an accident shot himself

00:31:51.325 –> 00:31:56.825
in the leg luckily it wasn’t fatal luckily nobody else got hurt yeah but but

00:31:56.825 –> 00:32:00.925
the point was he wasn’t paying attention and that’ll get you in trouble in a

00:32:00.925 –> 00:32:04.385
hurry so i was going to ask and i know we talked about some of this stuff ahead

00:32:04.385 –> 00:32:06.365
of time but I was going to ask, what do you find?

00:32:06.445 –> 00:32:10.045
Because I know you’ve kind of walked away from training for the time being for

00:32:10.045 –> 00:32:12.805
a lot of different reasons, and most of which is personal time.

00:32:12.925 –> 00:32:16.245
And I get that because, like you said, you have to train when everyone else

00:32:16.245 –> 00:32:19.045
is free and available, which is generally during your free time.

00:32:19.325 –> 00:32:22.545
I was going to ask you what you find the most frustrating with training.

00:32:22.685 –> 00:32:27.425
But I think, and it’s as I expected, I think it’s safe to say that it’s people

00:32:27.425 –> 00:32:29.785
claiming Claiming to be safe,

00:32:29.965 –> 00:32:35.645
thinking they know the safety rules, but not ensuring and being adamant about

00:32:35.645 –> 00:32:38.605
following them as closely as maybe they should.

00:32:38.765 –> 00:32:40.865
And I think that’s a safe bet.

00:32:42.938 –> 00:32:45.958
Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I would say that that’s on the top for sure.

00:32:46.498 –> 00:32:51.158
So, yeah, circling back, I know we talked about ammo and coming to class prepared

00:32:51.158 –> 00:32:53.478
with maybe more ammo than what’s stated.

00:32:53.618 –> 00:32:55.978
You know, I think some of your classes in the past, you’ve said,

00:32:56.078 –> 00:32:58.838
hey, you know, bring 250 rounds or 300.

00:32:59.018 –> 00:33:02.158
And a lot of cases we didn’t wind up going through all of that.

00:33:02.198 –> 00:33:05.198
But, you know, you should bring more than that just in case.

00:33:05.218 –> 00:33:09.738
And I’ve been guilty of that myself where I’m I’m down 25 rounds because I didn’t

00:33:09.738 –> 00:33:12.978
bring that one extra box. What other sorts of gear?

00:33:13.058 –> 00:33:17.658
I know we’ve got these tactical guys that like to come in with the four inch

00:33:17.658 –> 00:33:21.878
wide belts and their first aid kits hanging off the back and their chalk pocket

00:33:21.878 –> 00:33:28.338
back there and 16 magazines around it and their 511 combat boots and whatever else.

00:33:28.338 –> 00:33:35.618
But if you had to keep it simple for a student looking to actually train and learn and progress,

00:33:36.018 –> 00:33:42.678
what basic sorts of equipment should they expect to show up with and what sorts

00:33:42.678 –> 00:33:43.898
of equipment do they need?

00:33:44.738 –> 00:33:48.778
Well, first thing I would do if I was a student going to a training course,

00:33:48.898 –> 00:33:52.278
I would look at the curriculum, look at what is being taught.

00:33:52.398 –> 00:33:59.458
Then I would consider based off of what is being taught, what is in the curriculum, what is my goal?

00:33:59.838 –> 00:34:03.998
You know, am I learning for the end of the world, zombie apocalypse?

00:34:04.358 –> 00:34:08.358
Okay, bring all your kit, you know, your body armor, like you said,

00:34:08.358 –> 00:34:12.018
your tax bill, your cool guy stuff, your multi-cam hat, your,

00:34:12.058 –> 00:34:15.518
your ops core helmet and all this other stuff. Right.

00:34:15.858 –> 00:34:19.718
That’s how you want to train. That’s great. Most guys I’ve ever seen that’s

00:34:19.718 –> 00:34:21.758
never taken an eight hour training class.

00:34:22.647 –> 00:34:25.467
They last about 30 minutes with all that crap on, and then they go,

00:34:25.527 –> 00:34:29.847
man, this crap’s heavy, and they take it off. Strip it off, which defeats the purpose.

00:34:30.647 –> 00:34:35.767
Right. And again, you’ve got to build that endurance, that mental, physical endurance.

00:34:35.967 –> 00:34:40.787
But first and foremost, think about what the class is. Let’s say it’s an intermediate handgun class.

00:34:41.147 –> 00:34:44.627
Okay. And what are we working on? Well, you have to have a holster first off.

00:34:44.627 –> 00:34:50.487
So you’ve got to make sure it’s a quality holster, not one of these 599 nylon

00:34:50.487 –> 00:34:52.367
holsters with the thumb snap.

00:34:52.667 –> 00:34:57.927
And when it hangs off your belt, the gun’s almost hanging upside down. Dangling, yeah.

00:34:59.027 –> 00:35:04.007
Make sure you are adhering to the instructor’s guidelines as to gear and equipment

00:35:04.007 –> 00:35:08.007
because you’re not going to go through any course of mine when I was teaching

00:35:08.007 –> 00:35:11.367
with a cross-draw holster, a shoulder holster, a small-of-the-back holster,

00:35:11.407 –> 00:35:13.047
or an appendix carry holster.

00:35:13.607 –> 00:35:19.427
Appendix carry is getting very, very popular. I’m seeing even some very large people appendix carry.

00:35:19.547 –> 00:35:23.767
I don’t know how they’re going to get to the gun, but they’re doing it. But that’s okay.

00:35:24.587 –> 00:35:28.507
But the reason a lot of instructors won’t allow appendix carrying in their training

00:35:28.507 –> 00:35:33.527
course is nobody wants to see you shoot your junk off in class because you’re in a hurry.

00:35:34.727 –> 00:35:37.727
Probably appendix carry is a class in and of itself anyway.

00:35:38.407 –> 00:35:43.727
Right. And it’s more of the safety side of things. but you got to have a quality firearm.

00:35:44.207 –> 00:35:50.007
Don’t show up with your, you know, your, your Yemenis three 80 to take a defensive handgun class.

00:35:50.607 –> 00:35:55.187
It’s really not going to work, have proper equipment that supports it,

00:35:55.227 –> 00:36:00.387
have a backup, every class, every carbine class I’ve run, every handgun class I’ve run.

00:36:00.507 –> 00:36:04.947
Now, if I ran it at the range, obviously I had backup guns there,

00:36:05.047 –> 00:36:08.687
but you know, I run a training class off site somewhere and,

00:36:09.054 –> 00:36:14.054
I would always bring multiple extra guns that a student could use when there’s

00:36:14.054 –> 00:36:18.254
breaks because they didn’t get a good quality optic.

00:36:18.394 –> 00:36:22.334
They didn’t function check any of their stuff prior to their class.

00:36:22.474 –> 00:36:26.154
They didn’t have a zero on the rifle that was in part of the prerequisite.

00:36:26.214 –> 00:36:27.974
Make sure your rifle is zero.

00:36:28.114 –> 00:36:31.374
So make sure you’re checking the block as to what that instructor wants.

00:36:31.374 –> 00:36:35.254
They didn’t put that spend all the time to put those prerequisites in their

00:36:35.254 –> 00:36:39.874
class for gear and equipment and expectations because they just needed to type

00:36:39.874 –> 00:36:41.574
something for you. you’re not following.

00:36:42.074 –> 00:36:49.034
Right. And it’s so you don’t have to take time away doing silly crap like fixing

00:36:49.034 –> 00:36:52.554
a sling to a rifle because you failed to bring a sling.

00:36:52.594 –> 00:36:58.974
And now I just took 15 minutes away from 12 other students to fix your rifle

00:36:58.974 –> 00:37:01.534
because you didn’t have the proper equipment.

00:37:01.654 –> 00:37:09.274
So to me, not showing up prepared is selfish and disrespectful to both the instructor

00:37:09.274 –> 00:37:10.634
and And the students and given.

00:37:11.114 –> 00:37:14.434
Yeah, you’re paying. You’re a customer. I get that. You paid one hundred seventy

00:37:14.434 –> 00:37:15.654
five dollars for a training class.

00:37:15.814 –> 00:37:19.774
I get that. But I hate to break it to you. The world does not revolve around you.

00:37:20.014 –> 00:37:21.854
There are other students there

00:37:21.854 –> 00:37:28.994
that did come prepared that they took the necessary steps before class.

00:37:29.254 –> 00:37:33.134
So why couldn’t you got to show up with the right equipment and you can’t show

00:37:33.134 –> 00:37:35.334
up where you don’t know how to do this.

00:37:35.374 –> 00:37:37.894
I don’t know how to fix it. Well, you were supposed to know that before class.

00:37:37.894 –> 00:37:41.734
You were supposed to be able to be prepared before class, have your magazines

00:37:41.734 –> 00:37:45.334
preloaded before class, if that’s OK with the instructor.

00:37:45.574 –> 00:37:51.794
Usually when you sign up for a training class, I went through one class a couple

00:37:51.794 –> 00:37:53.694
of months ago. It wasn’t firearms related.

00:37:53.914 –> 00:37:56.874
I sent this guy four emails asking questions.

00:37:57.054 –> 00:38:01.034
I wanted information about the class expectations, what I can do,

00:38:01.154 –> 00:38:05.734
what I can’t do and all this other stuff. So I didn’t get a response from him

00:38:05.734 –> 00:38:09.934
for two months and it was four emails. I was like, Oh, whatever. I showed up for class.

00:38:10.194 –> 00:38:12.834
I was like, yeah, it was four hours. Boom. I left. Yeah.

00:38:13.394 –> 00:38:15.774
I’m paying for your time. And I.

00:38:16.346 –> 00:38:20.566
I’m trying to get more information. So send emails out, give your instructors

00:38:20.566 –> 00:38:24.106
a call and say, hey, is this OK? Is that OK? Or I don’t have this.

00:38:24.306 –> 00:38:28.746
What are my options? Yeah, that’s it. And that way you’re not showing up with

00:38:28.746 –> 00:38:31.626
like the, oh, wait, I was supposed to bring my own eye pro.

00:38:31.926 –> 00:38:36.686
Oh, yeah. I mean, yes. Yeah. Well, it’s in the book. Right.

00:38:36.906 –> 00:38:41.706
And you should, you know, just to to wrap that one up, you should definitely

00:38:41.706 –> 00:38:45.506
be planning ahead and have your own eyes and ears.

00:38:45.506 –> 00:38:49.706
Is right your own eye protection and your own hearing protection for sure just

00:38:49.706 –> 00:38:54.566
the basics just the fundamentals yeah well instructors are always in my opinion

00:38:54.566 –> 00:38:56.766
should always have backup equipment.

00:38:57.386 –> 00:39:01.326
It’s just it’s just how it is it’s things break things are unexpected that’s

00:39:01.326 –> 00:39:06.786
okay i get that you know just be prepared i i tend to be over prepared like

00:39:06.786 –> 00:39:11.326
i went to a training class i would bring two guns of each you know up with the

00:39:11.326 –> 00:39:16.046
carbine handgun class i bring the carbine two handguns. Not everybody has that luxury.

00:39:16.246 –> 00:39:19.706
You know, I bring like says a thousand rounds. I bring 2000 rounds.

00:39:19.786 –> 00:39:21.126
It said, you know, bring water.

00:39:21.266 –> 00:39:24.306
You know, I’d bring a 55 gallon drum of water.

00:39:24.366 –> 00:39:30.186
Um, you know, so I’d always go over the top, but I’ve never been at the point

00:39:30.186 –> 00:39:31.226
to where I’m like, Oh crap.

00:39:31.346 –> 00:39:35.146
I’ve actually been fortunate enough to where I’ve helped out other students

00:39:35.146 –> 00:39:39.126
in the class weren’t prepared and you can, you can help out.

00:39:39.186 –> 00:39:44.046
So definitely need to find yourself good training, Get through training and

00:39:44.046 –> 00:39:48.606
expect to start from the basics and work your way through, especially when you

00:39:48.606 –> 00:39:49.766
don’t have a lot of experience.

00:39:50.246 –> 00:39:53.766
Show up with an open mind. Check your ego at the door.

00:39:54.166 –> 00:39:58.646
Come prepared with the proper gear, maybe a little bit more than what’s asked.

00:39:59.446 –> 00:40:04.786
Follow the prerequisites, not just as far as the training itself goes,

00:40:04.946 –> 00:40:08.966
but as far as what the instructors asked for you to come, whether it’s magazines

00:40:08.966 –> 00:40:13.506
loaded or not loaded. your rifles zeroed. Yeah.

00:40:14.046 –> 00:40:20.706
So if I’m trying to find instruction, trying to find good training as a student,

00:40:20.806 –> 00:40:22.806
what should I be looking for?

00:40:22.866 –> 00:40:26.346
What’s considered good training and what should I expect from my instructor?

00:40:27.923 –> 00:40:31.083
Good training is difficult if you

00:40:31.083 –> 00:40:33.763
show up you don’t really know if it was going to be good

00:40:33.763 –> 00:40:36.603
training i i know guys that have gone to

00:40:36.603 –> 00:40:39.443
some high-end instructors that have that have walked away

00:40:39.443 –> 00:40:42.243
and said and that was not really worth the

00:40:42.243 –> 00:40:48.923
285 dollars for the six-hour class of war stories and you know watch him shoot

00:40:48.923 –> 00:40:52.983
and you know i didn’t get a lot of trigger time i fired you know 200 hundred

00:40:52.983 –> 00:40:59.683
rounds in an eight-hour class is to me yeah kind of it depends on the class but you know.

00:41:00.383 –> 00:41:06.483
Looking at reviews maybe you know it if i was running a professional training

00:41:06.483 –> 00:41:10.643
school and i had a website and i could have all these reviews on my website

00:41:10.643 –> 00:41:14.703
i’m not going to have a review that gives me bad feedback so looking at reviews

00:41:14.703 –> 00:41:20.323
is one of those things that as a company can can kind of,

00:41:20.323 –> 00:41:23.083
you know, control or filter.

00:41:23.403 –> 00:41:27.483
However, there are plenty of blogs, plenty of forums out there where people

00:41:27.483 –> 00:41:31.343
talk like, hey, this was great, or I went to this class and this was great,

00:41:31.423 –> 00:41:34.063
and I went to the same damn class, dude, and I thought it sucked.

00:41:34.683 –> 00:41:37.223
Everybody’s going to have a different perspective, a different expectation.

00:41:37.803 –> 00:41:42.963
I think from an instructor, as a student, what I expect out of the instructor

00:41:42.963 –> 00:41:46.083
is professionalism, knowledge, and patience.

00:41:46.703 –> 00:41:51.543
Yeah, patience is a big one. Yeah, those are my big three, because we all have

00:41:51.543 –> 00:41:53.703
a different learning curve. We all have different abilities.

00:41:53.963 –> 00:41:58.323
We’re all going into it maybe on different levels of the prerequisites.

00:41:58.323 –> 00:42:04.863
It’s, you know, one of my little unicorns that I want to take on my class is T is T Mac.

00:42:05.043 –> 00:42:10.343
I want to take his class and he’s, he’s a huge baseline fundamentals guy. Yeah.

00:42:11.003 –> 00:42:16.983
He’s very intense. I mean, I’m, I can be kind of the alpha intense at times

00:42:16.983 –> 00:42:19.483
as well. Teaching. He’s intense.

00:42:19.903 –> 00:42:25.043
He’s on all the time, isn’t he? Yeah. He’s he’s yeah. He’s amazing.

00:42:25.383 –> 00:42:31.103
Background is just absolutely phenomenal. I have, you know, utmost respect for the guy.

00:42:31.203 –> 00:42:36.263
Yeah. And if I don’t, if I don’t respect the instructor, I kind of,

00:42:36.263 –> 00:42:37.743
that wall’s already put up.

00:42:37.903 –> 00:42:42.103
I took a Glock instructor course and the instructor was okay.

00:42:43.243 –> 00:42:47.503
Didn’t really control the class. You know, had one idiot in the class who was

00:42:47.503 –> 00:42:49.643
some quote unquote SWAT commander.

00:42:51.343 –> 00:42:56.243
Just unprofessional students. The instructor didn’t really control the situation.

00:42:56.243 –> 00:42:59.323
So I was like, eh, you know, it was a thousand rounds.

00:42:59.523 –> 00:43:02.423
It was a, you know, one week training class. I checked the block.

00:43:03.248 –> 00:43:07.448
My takeaways were fine just because I wasn’t going there to learn anything.

00:43:07.628 –> 00:43:10.528
I was going there to kind of check a block for an instructor.

00:43:10.788 –> 00:43:12.528
Sure. For a Glock side of things.

00:43:12.928 –> 00:43:16.428
So I got something out of it because I got trigger time. So that’s always a

00:43:16.428 –> 00:43:18.908
good thing. But yeah, you got to have professional instructors.

00:43:19.068 –> 00:43:24.188
And I’m not saying, oh, man, he dropped the F-bomb and, you know, he said this.

00:43:24.248 –> 00:43:30.968
And, you know, there’s a difference between professionalism and just straight up like snooty, snobby.

00:43:30.968 –> 00:43:34.168
Like yeah i am not i am not refined by

00:43:34.168 –> 00:43:37.028
any means you know 20 years in the marine corps

00:43:37.028 –> 00:43:41.508
around yeah you tend to

00:43:41.508 –> 00:43:44.768
be a little rough on the edges you know when i started in civilians that

00:43:44.768 –> 00:43:47.868
was one of the things i had to stop doing was right stop cussing

00:43:47.868 –> 00:43:50.668
stop making you know these these weird kind of

00:43:50.668 –> 00:43:53.748
jokes where you just get like people get in

00:43:53.748 –> 00:43:57.108
the audience and go oh that was weird awkward moment

00:43:57.108 –> 00:44:00.068
you know so they don’t get the humor but yeah yeah

00:44:00.068 –> 00:44:03.108
right so from my perspective it

00:44:03.108 –> 00:44:06.588
seems like you know like everyone every business you know firearms

00:44:06.588 –> 00:44:10.628
instructors are like any other business firearms trainings like any other business

00:44:10.628 –> 00:44:16.188
you know the social media outlets are on fire certainly a lot of blogs being

00:44:16.188 –> 00:44:20.588
written and otherwise so you know a lot of the instructors i’ve come about well

00:44:20.588 –> 00:44:23.928
i should say i’ve i’ve learned about just through you know know,

00:44:23.928 –> 00:44:26.428
whatever social media outlet there is.

00:44:26.508 –> 00:44:29.348
So that’s a good way to start discovering some of these guys.

00:44:29.828 –> 00:44:36.468
But it seems like the best way to learn about the classes and instruction themselves

00:44:36.468 –> 00:44:43.488
is over the course of, you know, reading things online, but word of mouth seems to be big too.

00:44:43.688 –> 00:44:47.368
There’s a lot of opinions offered up to your point. And then you kind of see

00:44:47.368 –> 00:44:48.448
enough of an individual.

00:44:48.548 –> 00:44:52.688
Once you start following them potentially on social media, you can kind of get

00:44:52.688 –> 00:44:56.488
a sense of their type of character and the types of things that they’re doing.

00:44:56.608 –> 00:44:59.268
So you got to kind of take all that into consideration.

00:45:00.268 –> 00:45:05.328
Yeah, it’s tough unless you have been to a class before. And I know guys that are,

00:45:06.093 –> 00:45:09.293
been in my classes, been to multiple classes that I’ve done.

00:45:09.473 –> 00:45:13.393
I’ve gone to some folks multiple times just because I’ve enjoyed the class.

00:45:13.633 –> 00:45:17.533
And each time it’s being taught, you get a little bit different perspective

00:45:17.533 –> 00:45:18.673
or a little bit different tweak.

00:45:18.873 –> 00:45:25.053
You know, robotic instructors that teach a very strict curriculum and there’s no variation in that.

00:45:25.273 –> 00:45:28.533
I don’t think there’s a lot of depth to those types of instructors.

00:45:29.433 –> 00:45:34.173
You know, I like somebody that looks at the class as a whole and maybe make

00:45:34.173 –> 00:45:38.113
some changes to the class as a whole. So every class may be different.

00:45:38.353 –> 00:45:43.473
Every individual’s experience is going to be different, different perspectives.

00:45:43.693 –> 00:45:48.033
I know one guy that he came out and taught when the Marine Corps just first

00:45:48.033 –> 00:45:49.873
started up the MARSOC program.

00:45:50.133 –> 00:45:51.993
It was an experimental platoon.

00:45:52.273 –> 00:45:54.713
He came out. He was a Delta guy.

00:45:54.973 –> 00:45:58.093
I’m not going to drop his name because I just don’t see a point to it.

00:45:58.233 –> 00:46:01.733
He was a Delta guy, well-known back then. He’s well-known now.

00:46:02.333 –> 00:46:05.353
I know some of them, and he was professional when he came out and talked,

00:46:05.453 –> 00:46:07.993
because I was one of the SVTG instructors back then.

00:46:08.253 –> 00:46:12.813
I never had an issue with a guy, and I know several people now in the past couple

00:46:12.813 –> 00:46:16.913
of years that have been to one of their classes and said it was absolutely atrocious.

00:46:16.973 –> 00:46:21.913
It was more about him, focus on him, let’s watch him shoot, let’s watch him tell stories.

00:46:22.753 –> 00:46:26.333
And, you know, when you get some of the students, they just like suck up to that.

00:46:26.453 –> 00:46:31.353
And I’m like, dude, I don’t idolize anybody. anybody that’s you know that’s

00:46:31.353 –> 00:46:35.853
a false idol in my opinion that’s i can respect you but you know you tell me

00:46:35.853 –> 00:46:41.053
a cool story about you know how you did this or did that i’m not there to kind of.

00:46:41.688 –> 00:46:45.248
You know, kind of suck up to you. You know, I’m not, yeah, we can be friends

00:46:45.248 –> 00:46:49.148
on Facebook. That’s cool. But you know, I’m, I’m here to learn some, teach me something.

00:46:49.228 –> 00:46:53.208
I don’t, I don’t care that you were the first guy down the rope and whatever

00:46:53.208 –> 00:46:57.108
operation over these, you know, that to me is, that’s great.

00:46:57.148 –> 00:47:00.968
But how does that apply to me? Your stories are anecdotal. I’m here to learn

00:47:00.968 –> 00:47:04.068
how to shoot better and get some, get some range time.

00:47:04.168 –> 00:47:07.508
Otherwise this isn’t worth my time. And more importantly, my money.

00:47:07.848 –> 00:47:14.108
So you want, you want to stand up on a pedestal and tell stories and let’s pay

00:47:14.108 –> 00:47:18.528
for a speech seminar, not a, not a training seminar. Right. Right.

00:47:18.828 –> 00:47:25.168
So my thought, and when you’re seeking instruction and training courses is I

00:47:25.168 –> 00:47:30.108
think it’s important for the student or the prospective student to have a goal in mind,

00:47:30.128 –> 00:47:35.408
or if they’ve got more than one great, But have a goal in mind so that you know

00:47:35.408 –> 00:47:39.588
the types of training and maybe that’ll better suit you to the instructor you’re

00:47:39.588 –> 00:47:43.508
looking at or you need to find one that you think will better align with what

00:47:43.508 –> 00:47:46.368
your overall goal or goals are for that training.

00:47:46.608 –> 00:47:49.388
And then be realistic about what your goals are.

00:47:49.508 –> 00:47:53.008
If you’re new to firearms, don’t think that you’re going to go in there Call

00:47:53.008 –> 00:47:57.408
of Duty style with your AK or your AR and shoot up the place.

00:47:57.408 –> 00:48:01.288
You need to dial it back and learn that there is a process and you’ve got to

00:48:01.288 –> 00:48:02.528
get good with the fundamentals.

00:48:02.928 –> 00:48:06.968
So you need to have a goal in mind. And that’s part of being able to find the

00:48:06.968 –> 00:48:10.328
right instructors and training courses, too.

00:48:10.788 –> 00:48:16.468
Yeah, you’ve got to find a course that is going to fit what you’re looking for. Yeah.

00:48:16.528 –> 00:48:21.508
You know, if you’re showing up with no kit, nothing, you know,

00:48:21.508 –> 00:48:25.688
just a gun, a holster, a couple of magazines or heck, you don’t even have a

00:48:25.688 –> 00:48:29.568
magazine pouch and you’re sticking them in your your your shirt pocket.

00:48:29.568 –> 00:48:33.848
Yeah, that’s good enough for like a level one, just, you know,

00:48:33.848 –> 00:48:37.048
baseline fundamentals, just getting some trigger time, you know,

00:48:37.048 –> 00:48:38.328
mastering those fundamentals.

00:48:38.508 –> 00:48:44.288
But, you know, if you show up in full blown kit and you’re confusing the whole

00:48:44.288 –> 00:48:48.308
overall course because you’ve got so much crap going on,

00:48:48.428 –> 00:48:52.548
you’re not getting as much out of it if you strip all that crap off.

00:48:52.548 –> 00:48:54.588
And the same goes the other way around.

00:48:54.628 –> 00:48:59.068
If you’re taking an advanced level course and you’ve got to you’ve got to transition

00:48:59.068 –> 00:49:03.668
from your rifle to your handgun and you’ve got to be able to do speed reloads

00:49:03.668 –> 00:49:09.788
and tack reloads and you show up with a handgun with no mag pouches and a rifle

00:49:09.788 –> 00:49:12.348
and no sling. And I mean, yeah.

00:49:12.468 –> 00:49:18.208
So when you’re looking at training courses and instructors, because it’s twofold,

00:49:18.268 –> 00:49:20.788
it’s one may not relate to the other.

00:49:20.828 –> 00:49:26.028
So you may find a training course that you’re looking for because it’s got the curriculum you want.

00:49:26.208 –> 00:49:31.588
And but it may not be the instructor personality and the instructor that you’re looking for.

00:49:32.506 –> 00:49:38.846
You know, what takes priority. I think curriculum is good with a good instructor.

00:49:39.586 –> 00:49:44.946
Good curriculum with a bad instructor is bad curriculum.

00:49:45.306 –> 00:49:53.246
So the instructor is the key, in my opinion, to you can it could be some really

00:49:53.246 –> 00:49:58.246
fun, cool stuff, like take a three gun, learn how to do a three gun class,

00:49:58.246 –> 00:50:00.026
a shotgun, rifle and handgun.

00:50:00.026 –> 00:50:03.146
And the instructor would be absolutely horrible.

00:50:03.486 –> 00:50:08.106
And you just leave that class and you’re more confused about three gunning than

00:50:08.106 –> 00:50:10.326
you were when you signed up for the class.

00:50:11.346 –> 00:50:15.706
So it’s a relationship, absolutely. And it’s a three-way relationship,

00:50:15.946 –> 00:50:18.706
the curriculum, the instructor, and the student.

00:50:19.006 –> 00:50:26.146
And bad students can make a course very uncomfortable and really hinder the

00:50:26.146 –> 00:50:29.726
course because that means the instructor either is –

00:50:30.026 –> 00:50:34.786
not controlling his class, not controlling what is going on,

00:50:34.866 –> 00:50:39.086
or he’s so focused on what stupidity is.

00:50:39.146 –> 00:50:43.286
And I hate to say stupidity because it just may be a student that showed up

00:50:43.286 –> 00:50:46.026
that was not prepared for the class properly, mentally, physically,

00:50:46.346 –> 00:50:48.266
with the prerequisites.

00:50:48.306 –> 00:50:54.246
And all of a sudden he stops teaching 10 people to focus on one person for the next hour.

00:50:54.746 –> 00:50:59.646
That’s 10 people People that are not getting their money’s worth, in my opinion.

00:51:00.366 –> 00:51:04.626
Right. So there’s a balance. You can’t have it extreme.

00:51:05.006 –> 00:51:08.366
You know, and I’ve had students where I’ve said, you know what?

00:51:08.886 –> 00:51:13.666
This is not for you. I will refund your money. You can come back at a later time.

00:51:13.866 –> 00:51:18.726
Most instructors won’t ever refund your money. Most big courses, they just, they won’t.

00:51:18.806 –> 00:51:22.366
Because there’s too many things going on. They have to pay for a hotel,

00:51:22.586 –> 00:51:25.826
pay for a flight, pay for the range, pay for this, pay for that.

00:51:25.826 –> 00:51:30.226
So they believe they’ve invested in it. They’ve done their work.

00:51:30.586 –> 00:51:35.006
You didn’t do your legwork. Right. You know, come back at a later time kind of thing.

00:51:35.126 –> 00:51:39.006
And I’ve told several students that that is this is just not for you.

00:51:39.206 –> 00:51:41.866
And I’ve had also had several students saying, you know what,

00:51:41.926 –> 00:51:47.406
I really honestly don’t think the bottom arm is for you because I don’t think you were mentally.

00:51:48.477 –> 00:51:55.317
Prepared to have a firearm in your hand because everything you do is dangerous everything,

00:51:56.097 –> 00:51:58.997
that you know every every time you touch it

00:51:58.997 –> 00:52:01.917
your brain your frontal lobe just shuts down

00:52:01.917 –> 00:52:04.837
right you’re not ready you know you don’t if

00:52:04.837 –> 00:52:07.637
i ask you one plus one and you won’t even be able

00:52:07.637 –> 00:52:10.437
to answer that because your brain is completely shut down yeah that

00:52:10.437 –> 00:52:13.197
is not the time to be having a handgun in your in your hand

00:52:13.197 –> 00:52:16.297
or firearm or be around them period so

00:52:16.297 –> 00:52:19.537
you know i i think the advantage for students

00:52:19.537 –> 00:52:23.257
though over instructors is that a student can

00:52:23.257 –> 00:52:28.077
and should be reviewing and researching who they take a training course from

00:52:28.077 –> 00:52:32.917
the instructors don’t have that opportunity with their students right they’re

00:52:32.917 –> 00:52:37.357
not running background checks they don’t have a really solid way of verifying

00:52:37.357 –> 00:52:42.277
their skill set and knowledge and experience up to that point where they come to class.

00:52:42.737 –> 00:52:46.917
So yeah, that’s the disadvantage the instructor has. And a bad student like

00:52:46.917 –> 00:52:49.137
that can make it bad for everyone in class.

00:52:49.457 –> 00:52:53.457
But I think it’s safe to say for students that are looking for training that

00:52:53.457 –> 00:52:56.077
they should do their like anything else these days.

00:52:56.177 –> 00:52:58.937
The interwebs makes it super convenient.

00:52:59.097 –> 00:53:02.917
Should do your research, check out the instructor, check out the classes,

00:53:03.117 –> 00:53:07.817
check out reviews, blogs, whatever, social media followings, etc..

00:53:08.507 –> 00:53:12.587
Do your research and just know that, you know, you may choose a class,

00:53:12.607 –> 00:53:16.447
a training course and, you know, show up and go through the course.

00:53:16.507 –> 00:53:20.687
And it may take you going through a course or two to decide that wasn’t the

00:53:20.687 –> 00:53:22.207
type of training that I was looking for.

00:53:22.287 –> 00:53:26.247
That’s not the type of course I want to do in the future. So just know,

00:53:26.307 –> 00:53:30.427
you know, there’s no way to really know until you’ve gotten there and gone through it.

00:53:30.487 –> 00:53:33.187
So just know that might be part of the process for you, too.

00:53:33.287 –> 00:53:36.427
But at least have some goals in mind. Be realistic. and

00:53:36.427 –> 00:53:39.547
when you do get in class keep keep keep

00:53:39.547 –> 00:53:42.767
it safe yeah you got to do your due diligence

00:53:42.767 –> 00:53:45.487
yeah that way and the other thing there’s there’s no

00:53:45.487 –> 00:53:49.467
guarantees that it’s going to be a good experience or a bad experience there’s

00:53:49.467 –> 00:53:54.047
just absolutely not because yeah anything can happen but you got to think it

00:53:54.047 –> 00:53:58.667
big time overall investment because it’s not cheap to get training especially

00:53:58.667 –> 00:54:04.087
if you’re going outside the local your local range or local uh facilities because

00:54:04.087 –> 00:54:05.587
you know you’re talking You’re talking gas,

00:54:05.807 –> 00:54:08.987
you’re talking time away from work, possibly you’re talking flights,

00:54:09.207 –> 00:54:10.867
you’re talking hotel, ammo.

00:54:11.727 –> 00:54:16.187
You know, gear maintenance, all these things prerequisite that may require you

00:54:16.187 –> 00:54:22.567
to have other stuff that you typically don’t have readily available to you. Yeah.

00:54:23.267 –> 00:54:28.367
Yeah. So there’s you have to do due diligence on yourself, you know,

00:54:28.367 –> 00:54:30.747
and as well as those courses.

00:54:30.767 –> 00:54:33.627
And there’s there’s a lot out there is a lot of really good stuff out there.

00:54:33.667 –> 00:54:38.127
I’ve seen some really scary stuff just because it looks cool.

00:54:38.227 –> 00:54:41.807
Yeah. You know, I’ve watched some videos of some training classes. Yeah.

00:54:41.927 –> 00:54:47.267
Stuff. I don’t really know how dangerous certain things are around,

00:54:47.427 –> 00:54:51.907
you know, well-trained people. Yep. I’ve sat in a room.

00:54:52.627 –> 00:54:57.067
You know, obviously body armor and a helmet on is a quote unquote hostage during

00:54:57.067 –> 00:55:03.407
a live fire, you know, training class for four, three comp platoon clearing a shoot house.

00:55:03.587 –> 00:55:06.667
And I’m sitting in the middle of a room and they’re shooting targets all around me.

00:55:06.727 –> 00:55:12.447
I would never do that with anybody that I personally hadn’t trained because

00:55:12.447 –> 00:55:14.307
I know who the idiots are.

00:55:14.427 –> 00:55:17.667
I know who the good guys are. I know who I trust and who I don’t trust.

00:55:17.667 –> 00:55:21.667
And I see some crazy stuff on the instructor side, just because it’s cool,

00:55:21.827 –> 00:55:27.487
just because it’s trendy, just because, oh, I’m the only one in town that’s doing this. Yeah.

00:55:27.747 –> 00:55:31.567
And the one time you have an accident, it’s going to cost somebody their life.

00:55:31.667 –> 00:55:35.147
You know, it’s like the guy, remember the video, the guy and the kid in the wheelchair?

00:55:35.587 –> 00:55:38.267
Great on that kid for getting out there, getting on the range,

00:55:38.387 –> 00:55:40.087
shooting. That was awesome.

00:55:40.187 –> 00:55:45.827
But the facilities did not suit his capabilities because the range was covered

00:55:45.827 –> 00:55:47.847
in brass and rocks and everything else.

00:55:47.967 –> 00:55:51.007
And they’re trying to shoot on the move. And they’ve got this kid shooting on

00:55:51.007 –> 00:55:52.927
the move, trying to do it by himself.

00:55:53.087 –> 00:55:57.027
Wait, so if you’ve ever ridden in a wheelchair before, you can’t really,

00:55:57.087 –> 00:56:01.427
you know, move a wheelchair forward with one hand on gravel.

00:56:01.587 –> 00:56:05.267
Really doesn’t work that way. You know, and they’ve got an instructor behind

00:56:05.267 –> 00:56:08.987
him, like pushing him and the instructor is even pushing him like sideways and

00:56:08.987 –> 00:56:10.567
all sorts of things, not purposely.

00:56:10.827 –> 00:56:15.327
He’s shooting all over the place and he’s 10 yards away and students are the

00:56:15.327 –> 00:56:16.867
rest of the students already downrange.

00:56:17.067 –> 00:56:21.767
I’m like, yeah, that’s that’s like number one. Yeah, that’s that’s experience

00:56:21.767 –> 00:56:25.707
level guys like high level experience guys being downrange while people are

00:56:25.707 –> 00:56:29.487
shooting. Bad things can happen. So you got to filter.

00:56:30.127 –> 00:56:35.947
And sometimes your takeaway is, hey, great. It was trigger time. It was an experience.

00:56:36.647 –> 00:56:40.647
I’m not going back. Or it was such an amazing force.

00:56:41.087 –> 00:56:45.887
I want to go back. That was awesome. I want to learn more. I would say that

00:56:45.887 –> 00:56:51.847
we’ve had a good chit-chat overall again, covering the topic of firearms training and seeking it out.

00:56:51.907 –> 00:56:56.127
So the takeaway is that especially if you’re looking to carry defensively or

00:56:56.127 –> 00:56:59.847
use a firearm defensively, you definitely need to go get some training for yourself.

00:57:00.067 –> 00:57:03.127
And if you take nothing else away from this, that should be it.

00:57:03.387 –> 00:57:06.387
Well, listen, Van, it was good to have you back on again. I appreciate your

00:57:06.387 –> 00:57:09.907
time, especially on a Saturday morning, again, eating into some of that personal

00:57:09.907 –> 00:57:13.967
time. but I appreciate you being here and really thank you.

00:57:14.067 –> 00:57:19.287
Thanks Jim for having me. I appreciate it. Yep. And we’ll talk to you soon. Okay. Take care.

00:57:20.560 –> 00:57:38.539
Music.