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Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Self-Initiative Project podcast.

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I’m your host, Jim O’Brien.

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I have my good guest back on with us, Randy King from 8020 Conflict Management

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strategies. How are you, Randy?

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I’m doing well, Jim. How are you? Good. I understand you’re a little bit under

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the weather, so we’ll try to stay cognizant of that and plow through this thing.

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Great. Thanks. Yeah, man. It just is what it is.

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It seems like there’s the funk going around and it’s pre-flu season normally,

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I feel like, but everybody I know, I feel like it’s been sick, including myself.

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So yeah, up here in Canada, I think flu season comes a bit earlier,

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but same thing here everybody’s been a little sick it’s,

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frustrating yeah it’s crazy it’s like uh you

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know if it’s not coveted something but you know maybe we can

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all say we’ve had covet now if nothing else that’s true everybody’s got at least

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once at least once at least once yeah so i appreciate you taking time out especially

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in in the fact that you’re a little under the weather right now so thanks for

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that you know i was going back looking at our previous podcast,

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and we’ve done two, so this will be our third, but it’s been,

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it was August of 2020 when we did our first.

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It was broadcast 29 for me, realities of violence with you,

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and then we did one last year in July on de-escalation, and now here it is December

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of 2022, and we’re going to be talking about de-escalation for more,

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so it seems like we’re on like a once a year cadence for these things.

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I like it. I like it. Annually, we talk.

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Once every 12 months, give or take, we’re going to have a conversation and that’s good. Exactly.

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And yeah, for those that listens and hadn’t heard Randy’s and my previous conversations,

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podcast 29 and then again, podcast 40.

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So go back and listen to those if you haven’t yet, but certainly happy to have

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you back on with us again.

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And we had talked about de-escalation before and you know it’s not a sexy topic I feel like.

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You know all the weapons combatives and whatever else we can dream up to have

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a seminar to get folks into the schools or whatever is kind of like the,

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seems like the norm for things but de-escalation is important and I think it’s

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right up there in a form of avoidance, right? And we’ve talked about this before.

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And the nice thing, I think, well, I know about de-escalation may not be the

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sexiest topic in the world, but regardless of who you are, whether you’re the

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bouncer, the fighter, the first responder,

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military, law enforcement, or the housewife, girlfriend, whatever,

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de-escalation plays a part for all of us.

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And hopefully keeps us out of a lot of trouble.

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Oh, exactly. And I think that’s one of the key factors when we talk about any

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kind of what I call proactive skills, a.k.a.

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Soft skills, is that if we truly believe that our goal for self-protection slash

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self-defense is to avoid the fight, and I mean truly believe it.

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I don’t mean get in your secret stance and know that they can only throw one

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punch from there and hope it happens.

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I mean, actually trying to not get into a bad situation, then de-escalation

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is probably your final tool on that path of like avoidance, awareness,

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boundaries, and then de-escalation.

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So I really think it’s interesting because the last three seminars I’ve done

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for bar security at different locations have all been de-escalation. seminars.

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I think that while it’s not like sexy for our skulls on t-shirt kind of people,

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there are a lot of de-escalation is, at least in my opinion,

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coming more to the forefront.

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Now, of course, this is biased because my company teaches de-escalation.

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So of course, they’re hiring me for de-escalation, but I digress. Yeah.

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No, it’s right up there. You know, I think, you know, it’s easy enough not to

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go down the dark alley, right?

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When we’re trying to get back to our car it’s easy not to be on the road after

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midnight because nothing good happens out there after midnight you know whatever

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it is like avoidance is you know always in the back of our mind at least it should be but,

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I wonder if de-escalation and being able to verbally or otherwise diffuse a

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situation before it really becomes a situation is at the top of folks’ mind.

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And I don’t think it’s something that’s taught normally in the general self-defense community.

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Agreed. And well, I think the view that a lot of the general self-defense community

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takes is something has already happened, right?

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So for me, my view on self-defense, self-protection is it’s closer to safety

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training than it is martial arts in that safety training wants no incident to happen, right?

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They want to avoid all potential dangers where combatives sometimes kind of

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feed into it in martial arts in general.

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So with de-escalation, I think it’s one of the skills that you’re going to use

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de-escalation way more than you’re going to use your rear naked choke defense.

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Like de-escalation happens in all areas of your life, not just in the self-protection

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space, but it’s going to happen at work and with your, with your loved ones

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and maybe your children or partners or right.

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Like that angry person on the street. It’s, it’s such a critical skill set to have just in general.

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Yeah. And I know before we jumped on this call, you had said you’d been doing

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some stuff with bouncers, which I find fascinating because they have to be really

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disappointed to come to a self-defense,

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personal safety coach such as yourself and then be like, yeah,

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we’re going to talk about de-escalation, guys.

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There’s none of that rear neck and choke stuff going on here today.

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But it’s interesting, you know, and I think you make a good point.

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Well, I know you make a good point where it has a place in, you know,

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bouncing bars, whatever you want to call it, whatever that’s officially titled.

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The workplace, like, you know, there’s a lot of emotion and anger sometimes

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in the workplace and And then in personal relationships, too.

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And I think, you know, going back to the whole avoidance and how de-escalation

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fits in, like it has just as much viability in our personal relationships as it does anywhere else.

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So maybe that’s kind of like where we can go today is talk about like the bar

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scene, the work scene, and then how de-escalation can be used in our personal relationships. Yeah.

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Yeah, that sounds great. I think it’s interesting. So when the last security

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job that I did for a bar here in Edmonton, they actually requested de-escalation.

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And I was like, oh, that’s new.

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Right? Like, so, cause I, like, yeah, like when I go to, when somebody hires

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me, I’m definitely more known for the, the physical skillset.

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And like, I was a bouncer for such a long time. It did all that close protection stuff.

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And, but now they’re hiring me for de-escalation. And I think the reason why

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is we’re starting to see both with like, there’s a couple of things.

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Number one is generational.

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Like this generation of humans is much less physical in nature, just in general.

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Right. They’re not playing rough and tumble sports anymore. They’re communicating through screens.

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I think the next thing too is insurance companies. Like insurance companies

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are obviously biasing no physical contact.

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So the industry out there of force professionals,

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at least in areas like private security, are definitely looking for more functional

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training on ways that people don’t have to go physical, if not for at least the purpose of, look,

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we took this course, we tried, and then we went physical.

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CYA, right? Yeah. Exactly.

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So they’re covering it. And so I thought it was very interesting.

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And also I was shocked at how.

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Engaged my last two groups were

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because i do a course called realities of de-escalation

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for bar security specifically designed for them yeah and

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i i expected honestly like a

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lot of eyes to glaze over and a lot of like checking their

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phone and looking at the time because that would have been me

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like back then i would like roll your eyes

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yeah yeah this

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guy’s gonna tell me how to talk better nice super safe nice

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they were they were so they were

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so engaged really good questions really good

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feedback and i was just i was super impressed

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now not to take any skill away from me i’m a i’m an

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entertaining quote-unquote as a presenter but they they definitely were way

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more invested than i thought they were i didn’t have to work that hard to get

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them engaged so there seems to be a shift in mindset at least in that segment

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of people being like yeah maybe we do need to learn how to de-escalate a little bit better. Yeah.

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So I got to not to throw you under the bus this early on our conversation.

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I’m ready. But I have to ask, like,

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how do they feel that a skill like,

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and I don’t really know how to ask this, so I’m winging it as we go here,

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like we said, we were going to do how do you feel

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that a soft skill like de-escalation fits into the talking about bouncers and

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bars how do you think a soft skill like that fits into the inebriation drunk

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scene how do you work that in yeah it’s a great question and i think,

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while being drunk and inebriated does make some people hyper aggressive yeah

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and hard to deal with. It’s not everybody.

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Right. And honestly, like going through my past, because I get to speak from

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a high horse now, but I wasn’t the best at communication when I was first bouncing a lot of the,

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encounters or engagements that I had in the bar scene were definitely like I

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escalated the situation because people were supposed to listen because I’m the

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bouncer. You’re right. Authorities.

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Exactly. And I honestly do believe that a lot of conflict, which sometimes leads

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to violence is based off of people just feeling like they’re not being heard.

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And it’s very easy to write off a drunk person’s opinion because they’re drunk. Right.

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Even if they’re correct, You’re like, oh, but you’re drunk, so we’re not going to listen.

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And again, not all the time. This is what 80-20, the whole point of my company,

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is sometimes you have to go physical.

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You can do all the de-escalation avoidance in the world. Sometimes things are going to go physical.

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They just don’t need to go physical as often as I think they do.

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And that’s where these bouncers were starting to notice the problem because

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we live in a very interesting time where most of us were locked down for two years. right?

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Like a lot of us couldn’t leave our houses for chunks of time and our social

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skills degraded like so badly, right?

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Well, all you did was watch your favorite shows, hang with your people,

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like work from work and order your favorite food.

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And now people are going back out there with no social skills.

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There’s, there are people that started the lockdown, at least where I live, the drinking age is 18.

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They started as 16 year old, 16, two years of nothing.

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Now they’re getting drunk in public, that’s a big shift.

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They had no way to learn that. I really do think that.

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Communication is becoming important and even if the person

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is drunk if they feel like they’re

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being heard if they feel like uh that

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that they’re actually having a conversation with this person and

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they’re not just being shot down because they’re drunk and they’re not just

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being picked on because of their situation then it can de-escalate it because

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a lot of the time somebody’s screaming at you at least in my experience at the

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bar they’re not they don’t want to fight the bouncer some do but very rarely

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but they don’t want to fight the bouncer because they want to fight the bouncer.

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They want to fight the bouncer because their friends are inside and they need

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them to know they got kicked out or, you know, it’s somebody’s birthday or whatever.

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And so having this de-escalation we’ve seen does work.

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It’s, it unfortunately comes to a problem. And again, speaking purely from experience

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as a bouncer of being frustrated with drunk people, right?

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Like it’s, it’s most bouncers, it’s their second job, right?

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It’s not their first job, their second job.

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They’re trying to save money. They’re going to school, they’re exhausted.

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And then the 80th drunk person says they know the manager, right?

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You’re like, oh my God, I don’t care.

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And so just learning how to de-escalate first ourselves and then communicate

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with these people has been shown at least the small samples we have to bring it down.

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So to answer your question the longest way possible, there definitely is some,

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even if the person is inebriated, even if the person is high in some way,

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we can still use de-escalation skills most of the time. Yeah.

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Yeah. Makes, makes sense.

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What do you think the most, I, in the, in the bouncing community,

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what do you think the biggest challenges for deescalation to work effectively aside from the alcohol?

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A hundred percent i think we said this on the last episode

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so of course listeners will listen to that episode but to repeat

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it i think it’s it honestly is de-escalating ourselves

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first because again like i mentioned second job

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third job super tired this is

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the 80th person that’s tried to big time you right but this is the one that

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actually should be able to like this there’s just so much exhaustion i remember

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just a level of frustration and you get to a point where you think like you

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get to a point where every drunk person just seems like a pattern of the next drunk person.

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And so you start treating every person the same because the last nine were exactly the same.

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And then the unique number 10 comes up like, nah, you’re like the last nine

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and you don’t actually listen to this person. And it’s very tough.

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So I think that would be one of the, one of the hardest ones.

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And I think the second, the second area where a lot of security teams get in

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trouble with de-escalation because security teams have a benefit that you and

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I don’t have in regular communication, which is they,

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the person that physically escorts somebody outside or the person that,

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you know, is the one that stops the fight or gets in the middle,

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isn’t the one that has to de-escalate.

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They can tap themselves out and put somebody else in.

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And then it’s a fresh face that the patron is not mad at anymore.

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And so it becomes much easier to de-escalate. And that’s a technique, right?

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It is, 100%. We teach to every, I say doorman, door staff that’s Canadian,

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but every bouncing team that I teach, that’s like number one is learn when to tap yourself out.

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If you’re enraged and they’re enraged, get out of there, get somebody else fresh inside. Yep.

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And, you know, not to talk too much about the bouncing techniques of the world,

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but I think that’s a key one, because to your point, it’s not your first job.

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You’ve had a long day in the corporate world or the construction site, whatever it is you do.

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Yep and you need

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to keep your anger your fatigue

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and your ego in check and

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therefore just shuffle them off to someone else

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and you’ve just made the situation that much better because you’ve removed yourself

00:16:10.424 –> 00:16:15.104
exactly and that’s like our key tenet for de-escalation right is de-escalate

00:16:15.104 –> 00:16:19.904
yourself first before you try to de-escalate others because you if you’re enraged

00:16:19.904 –> 00:16:22.724
the odds to be calming somebody else down are very low.

00:16:23.084 –> 00:16:25.824
So if you can find that, and like you said, right? Like, okay,

00:16:25.984 –> 00:16:31.584
I’m surviving off of three Red Bulls at an hour 15 of me being awake, right?

00:16:31.644 –> 00:16:35.244
Like, you might not be making the best level-headed choices.

00:16:35.244 –> 00:16:38.244
That’s okay. So have that understanding.

00:16:38.764 –> 00:16:45.624
Yeah, three Red Bulls and two monster energy drinks in, we may not be making the best choices.

00:16:46.964 –> 00:16:52.984
Exactly. So the bouncing community, I think there’s a huge opportunity there

00:16:52.984 –> 00:16:56.244
to continue learning more about de-escalation and de-escalation.

00:16:56.701 –> 00:17:00.081
Keeping things in check from that angle.

00:17:00.341 –> 00:17:04.361
And what better place to practice too, right? Like if you could deescalate a

00:17:04.361 –> 00:17:09.441
random angry 21 year old on their birthday, you can probably deescalate a lot

00:17:09.441 –> 00:17:10.921
of other people. Anyone, right?

00:17:11.421 –> 00:17:16.441
You see all kinds of stuff in bars that you don’t see anywhere else.

00:17:16.981 –> 00:17:22.181
And so, yeah, if you get that, if you get that exercise there,

00:17:22.821 –> 00:17:27.461
you’re better poised in other situations that you might find yourself in.

00:17:27.681 –> 00:17:32.081
And with that being said, you know, the bar scene, the bouncing scene isn’t

00:17:32.081 –> 00:17:35.561
what most of our listeners are going to deal with.

00:17:35.981 –> 00:17:40.001
So how can that translate to the workplace, for example?

00:17:41.181 –> 00:17:45.861
So with the workplace, we have, there’s a bunch of like little kind of tips

00:17:45.861 –> 00:17:49.021
we can throw in here, but again, and I’m going to keep repeating it, right?

00:17:49.281 –> 00:17:52.161
Number one, learning, like we’re designed to take

00:17:52.161 –> 00:17:55.481
things personal like that’s that’s how our brain relates

00:17:55.481 –> 00:17:58.541
to stuff is we make it personal that’s how

00:17:58.541 –> 00:18:01.621
we identify with it and so if we can first learn

00:18:01.621 –> 00:18:06.421
to like calm ourselves down and not take it personal that’ll be step one to

00:18:06.421 –> 00:18:11.801
to making almost all encounters better and even when i used to run the debate

00:18:11.801 –> 00:18:16.981
show when i had it was in the podcast for debates like i if i felt myself getting

00:18:16.981 –> 00:18:18.641
emotional about the topic,

00:18:18.861 –> 00:18:22.641
I started losing the debate because I started having like this, this personal,

00:18:22.881 –> 00:18:25.081
like I had to be right or I had to win.

00:18:25.201 –> 00:18:28.681
And I think that’s where a lot of us, especially in the corporate world,

00:18:28.961 –> 00:18:36.541
get into trouble is the need to be, the need to be personally right as opposed to achieving the goal.

00:18:37.061 –> 00:18:43.201
Right. So if two of us are working on a project and 90% of our argument is whose

00:18:43.201 –> 00:18:47.381
name goes first on the report, like that’s, that’s a problem because the goal

00:18:47.381 –> 00:18:49.041
was get the report done, right?

00:18:49.361 –> 00:18:53.481
But once we need to be personally correct, that’s where things tend to slow down.

00:18:54.324 –> 00:18:57.744
I had a thought just now and it slipped my mind. So go ahead.

00:18:58.364 –> 00:19:01.824
No worries. So that’s what, that’s where we like preach deescalate yourself

00:19:01.824 –> 00:19:04.444
first. It’s very, it’s difficult to do. This is not easy.

00:19:04.684 –> 00:19:07.344
Like I could say, it’s almost like a thought ending cliche. Oh,

00:19:07.444 –> 00:19:09.184
just deescalate yourself and you have to stop thinking.

00:19:09.384 –> 00:19:12.944
No, it’s constant and you’re going to find yourself triggered and you’re going

00:19:12.944 –> 00:19:14.404
to find these little petty things.

00:19:14.584 –> 00:19:18.724
And you know, we go onto boundaries all the time because it’s very interconnected topics.

00:19:18.784 –> 00:19:24.984
But if you’re exhausted every other part of your life and workplace is the only

00:19:24.984 –> 00:19:29.524
place you can get that feeling of power, then the odds of you having.

00:19:30.484 –> 00:19:34.564
No conflict is going to be lower, especially if people are trying to get into your space.

00:19:35.384 –> 00:19:41.044
When we’re looking at just conflict in general because there’s no de-escalation

00:19:41.044 –> 00:19:43.344
without conflict, first of all, we look at the conflict.

00:19:43.484 –> 00:19:47.824
If we can make the conflict resolved without anybody getting enraged,

00:19:47.824 –> 00:19:49.104
There’s no de-escalation needed.

00:19:49.724 –> 00:19:55.084
If the person does start getting upset with you, we have to look at what is the problem?

00:19:55.764 –> 00:20:00.204
People try to solve people, right? They try to figure out how do I make,

00:20:00.204 –> 00:20:02.084
how do I make Jim different?

00:20:02.544 –> 00:20:06.304
And that’s, that’s not what you’re there for, right? You’re there to solve the problem.

00:20:06.444 –> 00:20:09.624
So if you take it off the person and go back to the problem,

00:20:09.644 –> 00:20:12.204
you can usually find a way to calm it down.

00:20:12.244 –> 00:20:15.384
So nobody’s taking it personally and nobody’s getting elevated.

00:20:16.184 –> 00:20:20.264
I’m having multiple thoughts here at once, so let me see if I can articulate this.

00:20:20.424 –> 00:20:24.124
So I think, you know, the first thing that comes to mind of what we’re dealing

00:20:24.124 –> 00:20:30.404
with, it seems like, and you tell me if I’m right or wrong, is it doesn’t matter

00:20:30.404 –> 00:20:31.904
if you’re bouncing a bar,

00:20:32.204 –> 00:20:38.044
dealing with bar patrons or a workplace or anything else, any other scenario

00:20:38.044 –> 00:20:40.304
for that matter, we’re dealing with ego.

00:20:40.944 –> 00:20:44.444
Yes. And so you have to recognize that and keep that in check.

00:20:44.444 –> 00:20:52.724
But the point that I had a moment ago that I was blanking out on that I wanted to circle back to is –.

00:20:53.703 –> 00:21:00.463
We have heard and read over time that, you know, when we feel ourselves getting angry,

00:21:00.803 –> 00:21:07.223
when we feel ourselves not responding the way we should have and we should in

00:21:07.223 –> 00:21:10.743
these using these soft skills, we should take time.

00:21:10.743 –> 00:21:17.223
We should leave the scenario, go away, whatever it is, and then come back to it.

00:21:17.463 –> 00:21:23.483
But in the heat of the moment, especially in the workplace, that may not always be an option.

00:21:24.803 –> 00:21:27.763
I agree 100 and the the

00:21:27.763 –> 00:21:31.283
walk away you don’t go for a walk that’s kind of that’s

00:21:31.283 –> 00:21:37.763
very much based off of like stress response mitigation like mitigating adrenaline

00:21:37.763 –> 00:21:42.603
cortisol etc yeah you can do that with just kind of like well there’s lots of

00:21:42.603 –> 00:21:46.643
ways you can use mindfulness or box reading or whatever but honestly like a

00:21:46.643 –> 00:21:50.623
deep breath is going to solve a lot of problems And it’s, it’s so,

00:21:50.783 –> 00:21:54.923
it’s so intrinsic and it’s so built into our language with something like,

00:21:54.983 –> 00:21:56.083
just take a breath. Yeah.

00:21:56.603 –> 00:21:59.963
Tell me what happened. Right. Like these, these things became,

00:22:00.223 –> 00:22:03.123
they’re so in our language that we forget what they are.

00:22:03.203 –> 00:22:06.943
But if honestly, like if you feel yourself starting to get enraged,

00:22:07.143 –> 00:22:12.223
if you take a deep breath, right. And then honestly acknowledge like,

00:22:12.303 –> 00:22:14.763
Hey, sorry, I’m starting to feel some big feelings here.

00:22:15.003 –> 00:22:18.623
Let me calm it down. one more time what we’re trying to say.

00:22:19.323 –> 00:22:21.723
It’s going to make just a world of difference.

00:22:21.863 –> 00:22:26.163
But that deep breath signals your body that things are calming down.

00:22:26.323 –> 00:22:29.483
Because when you’re heated, you have shorter breath, it’s more rapid.

00:22:29.683 –> 00:22:32.903
And so once you go, and you take that deep breath and you calm it,

00:22:33.023 –> 00:22:35.903
just even one, it’s going to start signaling to your brain, hey,

00:22:36.163 –> 00:22:37.863
you’re not in danger here.

00:22:38.123 –> 00:22:42.263
Right. What is actually going on? And that’s where we start to get into trouble. Yeah. Yeah.

00:22:42.577 –> 00:22:47.657
The breathing point is great. There’s so many different breathing techniques

00:22:47.657 –> 00:22:53.877
that you can do to relax and just refocus and get yourself in check, which is,

00:22:54.097 –> 00:22:59.237
you know, when you’re de-escalating a situation, we think in terms of how are

00:22:59.237 –> 00:23:03.997
we responding to another individual in the situation.

00:23:03.997 –> 00:23:11.877
But just as equally important is de-escalation has to do with how we’re reacting

00:23:11.877 –> 00:23:15.877
to a situation and what we’re doing for ourselves, you know,

00:23:15.937 –> 00:23:18.197
to ourselves in that moment as well.

00:23:18.197 –> 00:23:20.977
Well exactly i think like

00:23:20.977 –> 00:23:24.157
we all have personal biases and we all have

00:23:24.157 –> 00:23:27.717
these these things in our head that that make

00:23:27.717 –> 00:23:33.357
us take in information in a certain way and sometimes we jump skip information

00:23:33.357 –> 00:23:38.997
because of an existing pattern right so for example i have an action bias i

00:23:38.997 –> 00:23:43.297
assume like there’s always limited time to get something done but that’s not

00:23:43.297 –> 00:23:47.137
that’s not true that’s not true in 99% of the cases. Right.

00:23:47.597 –> 00:23:52.457
But if somebody’s talking to me, my action bias might kick in and that I’m not

00:23:52.457 –> 00:23:54.197
going to hear what the person is saying.

00:23:54.257 –> 00:23:59.077
So that deep breath, like for me personally, that deep breath and active listening

00:23:59.077 –> 00:24:01.877
has solved so many problems, right?

00:24:01.997 –> 00:24:06.517
Just like, okay, I’m sorry. What did you say one more time that they say that

00:24:06.517 –> 00:24:09.817
I repeat it? And they’re like, that’s not what I’m saying. Like, Oh, go ahead.

00:24:10.376 –> 00:24:13.676
And then when they clarify, I’m like, oh, we’re actually saying the same thing

00:24:13.676 –> 00:24:16.496
or we’re kind of very similar.

00:24:16.676 –> 00:24:23.376
But because a lot of us are listening to respond, not listening to listen,

00:24:23.556 –> 00:24:25.096
we’re waiting for our turn.

00:24:25.536 –> 00:24:29.856
We don’t hear everything. And especially if you walk in already frustrated.

00:24:30.036 –> 00:24:34.616
So if we go to the workplace and there’s Johnson over there and you hate Johnson, right?

00:24:35.016 –> 00:24:39.476
Johnson, Johnson can walk up to you with like the greatest solution.

00:24:39.476 –> 00:24:42.276
Get out of here johnson you’re like nope i’m done

00:24:42.276 –> 00:24:45.236
exactly because there’s no way

00:24:45.236 –> 00:24:48.176
this guy could have a good idea it’s like

00:24:48.176 –> 00:24:52.196
it would hit him in the head he wouldn’t know what it is right and so so we

00:24:52.196 –> 00:24:56.316
miss these and so it’s like in that deep breath and just repeating or mirroring

00:24:56.316 –> 00:25:00.696
or however you want to look at it yeah you’d be surprised like if for me the

00:25:00.696 –> 00:25:03.756
amount of times just being like i’m sorry this is what i’m hearing and then

00:25:03.756 –> 00:25:06.856
being like that is not what i meant i am sorry I’m like, oh,

00:25:07.196 –> 00:25:12.216
this is why I’m mad because the word you use is not the way I use a word.

00:25:12.396 –> 00:25:16.516
And or it’s maybe even phrasing. Right. Like, I love to tell a story about this.

00:25:16.916 –> 00:25:21.996
English is very, is very subjective because the words we choose,

00:25:22.096 –> 00:25:26.236
like there’s like 12 words for big in English. That’s too many words for big.

00:25:26.476 –> 00:25:28.996
But so people will use these words

00:25:28.996 –> 00:25:32.336
in different ways. And the one that I always go to is the word a lot.

00:25:32.891 –> 00:25:40.011
A lot. So yeah, a lot, a lot is a strange word because for, for me,

00:25:40.251 –> 00:25:41.711
let’s, let’s use blood for an example.

00:25:42.371 –> 00:25:48.531
If somebody tells me there’s a lot of blood, that’s like four liters, a gallon of blood.

00:25:48.671 –> 00:25:50.871
That’s a lot of blood. That’s a lot of blood. Yeah.

00:25:51.251 –> 00:25:55.591
Right. Yeah. That’s like the body shutting down. I remember my daughter got hurt.

00:25:55.731 –> 00:25:59.331
She cut her finger and she’s like, dad, I cut my finger. I’m like, is there blood?

00:25:59.491 –> 00:26:03.791
She went, yep. A lot. And I ran in there with, with my level of a lot.

00:26:03.891 –> 00:26:06.411
I’m like, Oh my God, my tourniquet in hand.

00:26:10.631 –> 00:26:16.931
To my daughter, a lot of blood is any blood. Yeah. I got it. I got a nosebleed dad.

00:26:18.251 –> 00:26:23.431
Exactly. That’s a lot of blood to her is a nosebleed to me. A lot of blood is like you’re pale now.

00:26:23.571 –> 00:26:29.431
And so that’s the thing, right? If I walk in with my bias to that conversation

00:26:29.431 –> 00:26:34.751
and respond with my biases on her communication, we’re going to run into trouble,

00:26:35.031 –> 00:26:36.211
right? There’s just no way around it.

00:26:36.471 –> 00:26:40.951
And so just reiterating, like I had a business meeting recently.

00:26:40.951 –> 00:26:44.131
We’re looking at hiring a social media manager. Sure.

00:26:44.531 –> 00:26:49.231
And the guy that I’m working with, pardon me? I said, of course you are.

00:26:49.971 –> 00:26:53.331
Of course I am. And so I can’t be doing this stuff all the time.

00:26:53.431 –> 00:26:54.471
You can’t do it all the time.

00:26:55.251 –> 00:26:58.751
Exactly. So we’re doing this, we’re looking at, he, the way it was pitched to

00:26:58.751 –> 00:27:01.991
me was we’re looking for a, a social media manager.

00:27:02.191 –> 00:27:04.591
And I’m like, I don’t need a social media manager. And they’re like,

00:27:04.651 –> 00:27:07.651
what do you mean? And then when we finally got down to it, she didn’t mean a manager.

00:27:07.811 –> 00:27:12.571
She meant a, like an account manager who specialized in social media.

00:27:12.771 –> 00:27:17.131
And I was like, oh, I want one of those because they can book deals for me.

00:27:17.231 –> 00:27:18.811
I’ll pay for that, but I’m not

00:27:18.811 –> 00:27:21.931
going to pay for somebody to update my Instagram. Are you insane? Right.

00:27:23.731 –> 00:27:28.251
But there again, right, that was a regular conversation having with a business associate of mine.

00:27:28.678 –> 00:27:34.638
And we hit an impasse just because the way he phrased that term was not what

00:27:34.638 –> 00:27:38.938
the roles and duties of that term were different in my head than his. Yeah.

00:27:39.898 –> 00:27:43.198
And I think you hit on a good point,

00:27:43.478 –> 00:27:46.618
either directly or indirectly, that I picked up on,

00:27:46.778 –> 00:27:56.538
and that is in the cases of de-escalation, it’s really paramount that we’re

00:27:56.538 –> 00:28:01.218
not distracted, that we’re not on our phones,

00:28:01.518 –> 00:28:05.398
you know, social media or whatever, when we’re trying to resolve this particular

00:28:05.398 –> 00:28:07.878
situation at hand in front of us.

00:28:07.878 –> 00:28:13.478
Which in normal communication in these days, I contend is the norm, right?

00:28:13.678 –> 00:28:17.558
Like, can you put your phone down long enough to finish up this conversation with me?

00:28:17.758 –> 00:28:22.078
Hey, and you know, it’s not just the smartphone and the social media,

00:28:22.218 –> 00:28:28.198
but it’s also, hey, can you actually listen to what I’m telling you and not

00:28:28.198 –> 00:28:31.778
listen for what you want to say to me next?

00:28:31.778 –> 00:28:36.158
Yeah, exactly. That’s so key in de-escalation, right?

00:28:36.318 –> 00:28:40.898
You really have to be in tune to what that person is going through,

00:28:41.158 –> 00:28:42.758
what they’re trying to tell you.

00:28:43.658 –> 00:28:47.118
Their perspective on things, you know, spinning that lazy Susan,

00:28:47.118 –> 00:28:51.818
which we may have talked about in our last chat about de-escalation, right?

00:28:52.058 –> 00:28:58.118
Like put all that stuff aside and really try to tune in because otherwise you’re

00:28:58.118 –> 00:29:01.538
just going to piss them off that much more and that’s completely opposite of

00:29:01.538 –> 00:29:03.538
what we’re We’re trying to get out of de-escalation.

00:29:04.174 –> 00:29:09.274
Oh, exactly. And you’re right. Especially with like the distractions and the phones.

00:29:09.414 –> 00:29:14.194
Like, so I used to be number one offender of phone was always in my hand.

00:29:14.454 –> 00:29:18.294
Like the worst. I’ve actually, I put a lot of work in and I actually,

00:29:18.494 –> 00:29:21.954
now when I’ve talked to somebody, my phone’s not even on the table anymore. It’s in my pocket.

00:29:22.294 –> 00:29:25.514
I just leave it alone. And then I talk to the person as a person.

00:29:25.674 –> 00:29:27.134
And then I check my messages after.

00:29:27.434 –> 00:29:30.794
But you’re right. Like that distraction or like you said, right.

00:29:30.894 –> 00:29:35.194
Waiting to respond or waiting, waiting to their turn to say the thing that they want to say.

00:29:35.394 –> 00:29:39.754
Like that, that is such a problem. We’re trying to have a genuine conversation,

00:29:39.914 –> 00:29:42.474
especially if emotions are involved. Yeah.

00:29:42.834 –> 00:29:48.894
And I think it’s a, it’s got to do with respect and being cognizant of the other

00:29:48.894 –> 00:29:56.294
individual’s ego too, and how that might be, you know, fueling things, so to speak.

00:29:57.107 –> 00:30:01.067
Well, exactly. It’s like going all the way back to the original conversation on bars, right?

00:30:01.167 –> 00:30:04.007
That’s what I said is half these drunk people just want to be heard.

00:30:04.647 –> 00:30:08.687
Right? If somebody doesn’t feel like they’re being heard, they’re going to become

00:30:08.687 –> 00:30:13.347
more and more of a problem until they get the attention they believe they need.

00:30:13.547 –> 00:30:19.087
And whether it’s right or wrong, it’s not really the case, but they’re going to get it somehow.

00:30:19.307 –> 00:30:22.727
And this happens in the workplace too, right? That squeaky wheel gets the grease

00:30:22.727 –> 00:30:26.807
kind of situation. Like we’re going to somebody to keep causing problems.

00:30:26.987 –> 00:30:30.747
We’re not going to be able to stop that until we actually understand what this

00:30:30.747 –> 00:30:32.947
person needs. And they might not even know what they need.

00:30:33.067 –> 00:30:36.867
That’s another thing that people don’t talk about de-escalation is we assume

00:30:36.867 –> 00:30:39.387
that like everybody’s level-headed in these conversations.

00:30:39.627 –> 00:30:44.327
And they have like this Machiavellian chef board of what they’re trying to get

00:30:44.327 –> 00:30:46.387
from you. And half the time they’re not.

00:30:46.787 –> 00:30:49.667
Half the time you’re arguing about dishes and they’re actually just mad that

00:30:49.667 –> 00:30:51.087
you forgot their birthday a week ago.

00:30:51.247 –> 00:30:54.787
Right? Like the argument that’s happening and the DSO is happening,

00:30:54.987 –> 00:30:56.347
this isn’t even the root problem.

00:30:56.547 –> 00:31:01.607
This is just the symptom of the actual problem that’s happening back here.

00:31:01.867 –> 00:31:06.467
And so actively listening and trying to find that, it’s impressive.

00:31:06.467 –> 00:31:09.167
I remember with my wife, we had this exact problem.

00:31:09.347 –> 00:31:12.867
We were arguing about something dumb and I was like, I don’t understand why you’re mad about this.

00:31:13.187 –> 00:31:17.447
And then we wheeled it all the way back down to she felt ignored a couple days

00:31:17.447 –> 00:31:19.467
ago. And it’s like, oh, so this is what you’re, okay.

00:31:19.627 –> 00:31:22.967
So this is what I have to de-escalate right here. It’s not this thing.

00:31:23.067 –> 00:31:27.227
This is just what we’re doing right now. This is a manifestation of this rage, right?

00:31:27.667 –> 00:31:30.767
And so, like, they might not even know.

00:31:31.325 –> 00:31:35.165
What the problem is. They’re just working from an emotional state of I’ve been

00:31:35.165 –> 00:31:39.145
offended or boundaries been crossed, and I can’t articulate what’s going on.

00:31:39.425 –> 00:31:42.225
So sometimes, depending on how deep your relationship is, you might have to

00:31:42.225 –> 00:31:47.025
be a little bit Sherlock Holmes-y and start being a detective to find out what the issue is.

00:31:47.405 –> 00:31:55.085
So not to go too far down this rabbit hole, but what comes to my mind is the limbic system, right?

00:31:55.245 –> 00:32:03.185
And it’s almost next to impossible to apply logic and reason or even vocabulary to that.

00:32:03.325 –> 00:32:05.765
It’s just the way we’re made to feel.

00:32:06.905 –> 00:32:08.705
Yeah. And dealing with that can help.

00:32:09.189 –> 00:32:13.289
At a whole new level of stress and

00:32:13.289 –> 00:32:16.869
you’re not hearing me and exactly right

00:32:16.869 –> 00:32:19.829
or yeah or i said that you know what i

00:32:19.829 –> 00:32:22.849
don’t understand what’s happening everybody’s getting heated nobody’s listening

00:32:22.849 –> 00:32:26.089
but you’re right like once you’re in that limbic part of you once you’re in

00:32:26.089 –> 00:32:29.809
that limbic system your your brain is doing something different it’s no longer

00:32:29.809 –> 00:32:34.189
trying to problem solve it’s trying to like keep itself safe that’s a different

00:32:34.189 –> 00:32:38.409
place and if we can’t pull them back into that critical thinking place in their brain,

00:32:38.609 –> 00:32:42.649
if we can’t pull them out of those feelings and into like a logical conversation,

00:32:43.109 –> 00:32:45.529
even though they might think they’re being logical while they’re upset,

00:32:45.869 –> 00:32:47.129
it’s not, they don’t go together.

00:32:47.389 –> 00:32:51.989
But if we can’t do that, then we’re going to have a lot of trouble de-escalating the situation.

00:32:52.169 –> 00:32:54.609
And then that’s where a walk away would be a good idea, right?

00:32:54.729 –> 00:32:58.069
Like if, if somebody is like really heated and they’re like,

00:32:58.169 –> 00:33:00.289
you know, that’s when you take a walk, right?

00:33:00.429 –> 00:33:03.389
But there’s been lots of places where two people have been critically thinking

00:33:03.389 –> 00:33:05.209
and they’re, they’re starting to get heated.

00:33:05.389 –> 00:33:07.569
And that’s where just your deep breath is going to happen. Cause of course,

00:33:07.829 –> 00:33:11.589
each one of these situations is going to be different, but as a general rule,

00:33:11.729 –> 00:33:16.149
like if, if the person’s not even hearing you at all, it might be time to take a break. Yeah.

00:33:16.869 –> 00:33:22.549
Yeah. Take a break, keep the ego in check and breathe and come back with thoughts

00:33:22.549 –> 00:33:25.869
about what you want to say that the other person might hear.

00:33:27.589 –> 00:33:32.069
Exactly. Yeah. And if you can honestly, and I know this isn’t for everyone.

00:33:32.069 –> 00:33:35.509
I had a discussion with somebody on a local radio host here,

00:33:35.689 –> 00:33:38.789
and he’s like, he can’t back down. It’s not in him, apparently.

00:33:39.089 –> 00:33:41.929
I’m like, that’s fine. You’re like 50 now. It should be fine.

00:33:42.049 –> 00:33:43.389
You’re probably younger.

00:33:44.838 –> 00:33:51.598
If you, if you have the, the wherewithal to realize that appeasing their ego

00:33:51.598 –> 00:33:53.998
might get the job done faster,

00:33:54.238 –> 00:33:59.598
there’s some, that’s, that’s almost a superpower of like productivity is being

00:33:59.598 –> 00:34:04.038
like, okay, so you need to have this light shine on you.

00:34:04.458 –> 00:34:08.998
Feel free because a lot of the time, not always, most of the time people know who’s doing the work.

00:34:09.118 –> 00:34:11.898
People know who just wants the attention, right? If you just keep doing the

00:34:11.898 –> 00:34:14.138
thing you’re doing, you’re probably going to get noticed. Yeah.

00:34:15.998 –> 00:34:21.138
So the one thing that I don’t think, well, I’m pretty certain we have not,

00:34:21.138 –> 00:34:27.258
the one thing that we have not spent a lot of time on is how de-escalation can

00:34:27.258 –> 00:34:29.658
have a place in personal relationships.

00:34:29.658 –> 00:34:35.598
And also, unlike a lot of self-defense schools and approaches to things,

00:34:35.738 –> 00:34:41.238
it’s the bad guy in the black ski mask.

00:34:41.458 –> 00:34:48.818
It’s getting pulled into the white van with no windows in it.

00:34:48.958 –> 00:34:56.118
It’s the unknown third-party thing that we plan for and do defenses against

00:34:56.118 –> 00:34:58.798
in the self-defense community.

00:34:59.658 –> 00:35:06.158
But I feel like that another disservice is not talking about the realities where

00:35:06.158 –> 00:35:11.318
crimes are committed by folks, you know, either family, co-workers,

00:35:12.718 –> 00:35:17.538
former spouses or current spouses, you know, current significant others,

00:35:17.718 –> 00:35:19.298
I guess, not spouses. Yeah.

00:35:19.718 –> 00:35:24.898
And how de-escalation certainly has a role there.

00:35:27.034 –> 00:35:29.834
Absolutely but i think we’re going to put a real big caveat on

00:35:29.834 –> 00:35:32.714
this is de-escalation is only going

00:35:32.714 –> 00:35:35.654
to work in a healthy relationship the only

00:35:35.654 –> 00:35:38.734
place de-escalation is going to work in a toxic

00:35:38.734 –> 00:35:45.894
relationship is to buy time to get out of there and not return right so this

00:35:45.894 –> 00:35:48.814
is like you hit it right on the head right i’m sure we talked about this in

00:35:48.814 –> 00:35:52.634
our first podcast like i harp on it all the time but like you said right we

00:35:52.634 –> 00:35:56.894
prepare for stranger danger but if you look at the numbers that is not the lion’s

00:35:56.894 –> 00:35:58.034
share of violence that’s happening,

00:35:58.154 –> 00:36:00.554
right? The victim knows the attacker. It’s simple as that.

00:36:00.774 –> 00:36:05.794
And it’s hard to talk about because the answers are way squishier on this side of things, right?

00:36:06.054 –> 00:36:10.734
It’s easy when it’s a bad guy in a mask. It’s hard when it’s grandpa and your daughter, right?

00:36:11.594 –> 00:36:13.554
It’s a whole different…

00:36:14.654 –> 00:36:18.974
Emotions, attachment. You don’t have that with a stranger. Exactly.

00:36:18.974 –> 00:36:21.694
There’s no social pressure. There’s no what if they think I’m lying.

00:36:21.874 –> 00:36:25.474
There’s all this, so much stuff. So when we talk de-escalation,

00:36:25.654 –> 00:36:30.234
de-escalation helps in healthy relationships and it makes those relationships better.

00:36:30.534 –> 00:36:34.014
De-escalation is not going to help in an abusive cycle. It’s not going to help

00:36:34.014 –> 00:36:36.214
in domestic violence in any stretch of the imagination.

00:36:36.534 –> 00:36:39.834
Again, unless you’re just calming them down to leave.

00:36:39.834 –> 00:36:42.994
To get out right to get out right

00:36:42.994 –> 00:36:46.594
this is where where like

00:36:46.594 –> 00:36:50.174
especially when it comes to interpersonal relationships i really hammer on the

00:36:50.174 –> 00:36:55.954
boundary setting stuff because boundary setting is the litmus test for people

00:36:55.954 –> 00:36:59.914
in your life if somebody you meet doesn’t respect your boundaries then you shouldn’t

00:36:59.914 –> 00:37:03.154
spend time with that person period you should figure out a way to work around

00:37:03.154 –> 00:37:06.174
it so you don’t get in the situation but if you’re already in it.

00:37:06.759 –> 00:37:10.439
The escalation will make, will make a good partnership better.

00:37:10.739 –> 00:37:15.279
Simple as that. If you, if you know how to listen, if you know how to articulate,

00:37:15.279 –> 00:37:19.079
if you know how to put your ego aside for five seconds and just,

00:37:19.199 –> 00:37:21.959
just take out the garbage or whatever you had to do, right?

00:37:22.059 –> 00:37:26.819
Like it’s going to make things easier. There’s a joke, a happy, happy wife, happy life.

00:37:26.959 –> 00:37:31.139
I thought super inclusive, but, but it’s true, right? If your partner is happy,

00:37:31.299 –> 00:37:32.879
your life is going to be easier.

00:37:33.319 –> 00:37:36.379
Do you have to eat crow sometimes? Do you have to let their ego win sometimes?

00:37:36.679 –> 00:37:39.179
Sure, if it’s a good relationship, they’ll do it to you as well.

00:37:39.599 –> 00:37:44.339
But in the personal stuff, like de-escalation is, I think, it’s one of the best

00:37:44.339 –> 00:37:48.939
ways to make something that’s okay to good way, way better.

00:37:49.199 –> 00:37:52.739
You can learn how to communicate, you can learn what the issues are,

00:37:52.819 –> 00:37:55.679
and then you can start finding things way ahead of time.

00:37:56.679 –> 00:38:00.819
I know a friend of mine, he’s very good with his partner. he

00:38:00.819 –> 00:38:03.739
he likes he can tell by her text if he should bring home

00:38:03.739 –> 00:38:06.539
a snack like he’s like oh all right like this

00:38:06.539 –> 00:38:09.279
is gonna go bad i’m gonna grab something on the way

00:38:09.279 –> 00:38:12.579
home go ahead and stop by

00:38:12.579 –> 00:38:17.339
and grab something on the way home because i know exactly right so like for

00:38:17.339 –> 00:38:21.779
me for example sometimes i’m lazy and i uh skip the dishes which is like uber

00:38:21.779 –> 00:38:25.199
eats type thing and i order coffee to the house instead of making it because

00:38:25.199 –> 00:38:29.899
starbucks i’ve lived in suburbs now it’s a little bit of a drive and When I order one,

00:38:30.099 –> 00:38:33.239
no matter what, even if she’s dead asleep, I order her one, too.

00:38:33.859 –> 00:38:37.039
It’s going to save me problems later on. You’ll hear about it.

00:38:37.359 –> 00:38:39.319
Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

00:38:40.099 –> 00:38:42.859
But yeah, no, I think like practice de-escalation is really good.

00:38:43.039 –> 00:38:47.219
And it’s especially good if you want to stay in the relationship you’re in,

00:38:47.359 –> 00:38:50.579
right? Like my daughter’s 14 now. She just got her learner’s permit.

00:38:51.619 –> 00:38:55.959
She’s no longer as much my little buddy as she is her own little adult.

00:38:56.259 –> 00:39:01.399
Yeah. So we’re starting to get to some like pushback and I’ve been, I’ve been very blessed.

00:39:01.499 –> 00:39:05.639
Me and my kid had been like besties up until now. And now she’s a 14 year old

00:39:05.639 –> 00:39:07.159
girl and I don’t have that experience.

00:39:07.379 –> 00:39:10.019
I don’t know what she’s doing or going through. And so,

00:39:10.711 –> 00:39:16.031
Like, even then, like when she starts to come at me, because teenagers come in hot, right?

00:39:16.911 –> 00:39:20.231
That’s where de-escalation shines like nobody’s business. My daughter doesn’t

00:39:20.231 –> 00:39:24.071
hate me yet because I can de-escalate her raging hormones.

00:39:24.451 –> 00:39:26.151
The rage, yeah. Right? Yeah.

00:39:26.571 –> 00:39:29.671
Because she’s mad. She doesn’t even know why she’s mad. And I’m like,

00:39:29.731 –> 00:39:31.431
all right, let’s figure this out.

00:39:31.611 –> 00:39:33.711
Yeah. Right? Without being condescending, without being like,

00:39:33.791 –> 00:39:34.851
it’s my way or the highway.

00:39:35.151 –> 00:39:38.991
Right. That’s where de-escalation shines is in maintaining these relationships

00:39:38.991 –> 00:39:40.551
when people are going through things.

00:39:40.711 –> 00:39:45.411
Like you can have the perfect marriage, but maybe your partner’s parent dies

00:39:45.411 –> 00:39:48.131
and now they’re not, they’re not themselves.

00:39:48.791 –> 00:39:52.811
Having strong de-escalation skills are going to get you through that time when

00:39:52.811 –> 00:39:56.251
your partner’s going through a high impact event or crisis, right?

00:39:56.451 –> 00:40:00.431
This is why I think these skills are so important. I couldn’t agree more.

00:40:00.591 –> 00:40:03.911
And, you know, as we’re talking about the domesticated stuff,

00:40:04.111 –> 00:40:11.231
which we are, I can’t help but think that there is much like any other de-escalation

00:40:11.231 –> 00:40:15.311
situation, if you can, there is merit to leaving.

00:40:16.058 –> 00:40:20.998
And going away, going to get an ice cream cone, going to have a beer at the

00:40:20.998 –> 00:40:25.058
bar, you know, that might not be so great for you, but you know what I mean?

00:40:25.198 –> 00:40:31.518
Like, whatever it is, like leaving the situation, taking those breaths,

00:40:32.038 –> 00:40:34.758
leaving the situation and coming back later, right?

00:40:34.878 –> 00:40:41.518
That that’s a key component to de-escalation, even in domestic in domesticated situations.

00:40:42.258 –> 00:40:45.398
Oh yeah exactly like if going to the bar with your friends calms

00:40:45.398 –> 00:40:48.418
you down that might be a good move but it could be too right like all

00:40:48.418 –> 00:40:51.438
right we’re both heated i’m gonna go hit the gym you do the

00:40:51.438 –> 00:40:54.438
thing that calms you down yeah and let’s let’s let’s meet

00:40:54.438 –> 00:40:57.358
again there’s a tiktok trend right now about that there’s a therapist

00:40:57.358 –> 00:41:00.258
there’s like me and my husband when we argue we

00:41:00.258 –> 00:41:03.058
go both work out for 20 minutes come back and talk about it

00:41:03.058 –> 00:41:05.998
yeah i’m like that’s so smart if you have the wherewithal to

00:41:05.998 –> 00:41:09.118
go work out i can see myself be like i don’t need to work out you get out i’m

00:41:09.118 –> 00:41:13.458
just gonna sit right here right exactly i’m gonna pout you do that thing it’ll

00:41:13.458 –> 00:41:17.978
be fine but there is some there is some method right taking a breath going for

00:41:17.978 –> 00:41:22.398
a walk i think i think it’s somebody being like let me just go for a walk around

00:41:22.398 –> 00:41:24.478
the block has probably saved so many marriages,

00:41:25.298 –> 00:41:27.978
unbelievable numbers being willing to go.

00:41:29.958 –> 00:41:33.078
Take the walk and when i say that

00:41:33.078 –> 00:41:36.078
i think because you know we’ve all

00:41:36.078 –> 00:41:39.038
if we’re honest about things we’ve

00:41:39.038 –> 00:41:41.938
all experienced things that have

00:41:41.938 –> 00:41:46.838
caused us to do things that we may not have chosen to do if we had been smart

00:41:46.838 –> 00:41:54.038
about it but I think that there’s a lot of merit we find ourselves in these

00:41:54.038 –> 00:42:01.818
heated moments where we think it’s important or the priority should be on solving them in the moment and,

00:42:02.429 –> 00:42:07.229
And when you’re heated, that’s not necessarily the best time.

00:42:08.089 –> 00:42:13.009
So taking those breathing breaks or going for a walk around the block or taking

00:42:13.009 –> 00:42:16.109
the dog, you know, maybe it’s a great time to take the dog to,

00:42:16.109 –> 00:42:19.869
you know, whatever around the block.

00:42:20.169 –> 00:42:26.489
Like, right. There are moments in time where we should have like walked away

00:42:26.489 –> 00:42:31.789
for the moment so that we can come back and resolve this in a better manner.

00:42:31.989 –> 00:42:34.709
Right. instead of fighting through in the moment.

00:42:35.049 –> 00:42:37.669
And that’s part of the de-escalation process too.

00:42:38.329 –> 00:42:43.569
I agree a hundred percent. There’s, there’s, you don’t need to add time pressure

00:42:43.569 –> 00:42:47.409
when there isn’t time pressure, right? If you’ve been married for 15 years,

00:42:47.569 –> 00:42:50.749
this argument can sit for five minutes. It’s going to be okay.

00:42:51.109 –> 00:42:55.389
Right. There’s no, there’s no need to, it’s not a bomb that’s going to go off. Right.

00:42:55.509 –> 00:42:59.229
You can take a minute and solve it, but we like the humans.

00:42:59.369 –> 00:43:02.289
Like, again, I have that action bias, right? So I want to solve it now.

00:43:02.289 –> 00:43:04.409
We got to figure this out. Don’t go to bed angry.

00:43:04.649 –> 00:43:09.029
But sometimes you can sleep on it and wake up and be like, I’m a jerk. I’m sorry.

00:43:09.409 –> 00:43:15.929
Right? Like, and this is the, this is the paradox of relationships is the closer

00:43:15.929 –> 00:43:20.429
somebody gets to you, the more they can affect your emotional state.

00:43:20.689 –> 00:43:24.749
Right? Like, there’s a reason why every time there’s a murder,

00:43:24.869 –> 00:43:26.969
they look at the husband and wife first.

00:43:27.349 –> 00:43:31.089
Right? Because who else can make you mad enough to kill them than your wife?

00:43:31.329 –> 00:43:35.649
Right? I hate when you’re huddling. Yeah. Oh, you’re so close for us. No secret. Yeah.

00:43:36.969 –> 00:43:41.389
Right? And it’s so like, and that’s the problem.

00:43:41.529 –> 00:43:45.869
That’s the paradox, right? Is I love you so much, I could only get this mad

00:43:45.869 –> 00:43:49.249
at you. Like, it’s so stupid. I would never get this mad at a stranger.

00:43:49.729 –> 00:43:55.449
Yeah. Yeah. And obviously there’s a limit to that. They get your goat because

00:43:55.449 –> 00:44:00.529
they know you so well and they’re closer to you than anywhere else, than anyone else.

00:44:01.385 –> 00:44:05.685
Exactly. So then again, right, if you can deescalate that situation,

00:44:05.885 –> 00:44:10.605
that deescalating the random stranger you see at work for 15 minutes as a client

00:44:10.605 –> 00:44:14.985
or the annoying co-worker you see for two hours a day is going to be a lot easier

00:44:14.985 –> 00:44:18.545
because they’re not nearly as close to you ideally as your partner. Yeah.

00:44:19.165 –> 00:44:24.145
Yeah. Circling back to kind of where we started on this domesticated side of

00:44:24.145 –> 00:44:32.525
things, we said that de-escalation really doesn’t work unless you’re trying to finagle your way out,

00:44:32.845 –> 00:44:35.265
like manipulating the situation,

00:44:35.705 –> 00:44:41.525
working the system, so to speak, to find it out. Can we talk about that for a minute?

00:44:41.745 –> 00:44:46.205
Like for those that are, you know, wondering how this might apply for them and

00:44:46.205 –> 00:44:51.485
their horrible situation, like what they can expect, what they should try, like. Sure.

00:44:52.325 –> 00:44:57.005
So de-escalation mostly works on what we call the social side of violence, right?

00:44:57.205 –> 00:45:00.905
So the asocial side de-escalation might be more buying time,

00:45:01.605 –> 00:45:05.165
et cetera, when we’re talking about like predators, but most conflict happens

00:45:05.165 –> 00:45:07.405
on the social side where egos are involved. Yeah.

00:45:07.765 –> 00:45:15.385
And so if we look at it, the best model I have for this is most arguments come

00:45:15.385 –> 00:45:18.325
from one of four places. So they’re either based off of status.

00:45:19.327 –> 00:45:22.607
Who am I? Like, I’m important, right? So we use the bar as an example.

00:45:22.847 –> 00:45:25.507
Somebody might give you conflict because they know the manager.

00:45:25.787 –> 00:45:29.107
And so they believe they have this status. You’re not recognizing those.

00:45:29.867 –> 00:45:34.327
So you get conflict from there. You get conflict from membership in the group.

00:45:34.447 –> 00:45:36.147
Like, where do I fit? This is my daughter.

00:45:36.667 –> 00:45:39.987
She’s no longer a child. Where does she fit in the family now, right?

00:45:40.107 –> 00:45:45.267
Is she a secondary person? Is she a first class citizen? Where does she fit? Right.

00:45:45.847 –> 00:45:49.767
Yeah. Then we have protocols, which are like the rules of the group where you

00:45:49.767 –> 00:45:53.227
have that person works like, that’s not how we do this here, right?

00:45:54.007 –> 00:45:58.207
So we have status, protocols, membership, and then last is territory, right?

00:45:58.347 –> 00:46:01.787
This is my stuff. That’s my girlfriend. That’s my parking spot.

00:46:01.927 –> 00:46:05.007
You cut me off in traffic in my lane. Ownership, yeah.

00:46:05.687 –> 00:46:10.727
Yeah. So what we need to do is first find out which one of those four things is the issue.

00:46:10.947 –> 00:46:15.047
Is this a status issue? Is it a membership issue? Is it a rules issue?

00:46:15.047 –> 00:46:16.447
Or is it a territory issue?

00:46:16.967 –> 00:46:21.067
Right? Because once you figure that out, you can really find a way to deescalate

00:46:21.067 –> 00:46:22.367
from that position, right?

00:46:22.687 –> 00:46:27.327
So you’re in a bar, you knock somebody’s drink over, that’s a territory problem, right?

00:46:27.367 –> 00:46:30.707
Hey, that’s my drink, blah, blah, blah. Cool, let me buy you a drink.

00:46:30.907 –> 00:46:34.447
You might be able to solve it right there, right? It could be a status thing,

00:46:34.567 –> 00:46:37.327
right? Oh, doesn’t matter. Nobody spills this drink in my bar.

00:46:37.627 –> 00:46:41.507
Oh, you’re the big guy around here? I didn’t know I’m relatively new, right? Right on.

00:46:41.647 –> 00:46:44.767
So yeah, right on. Good to know you’re the guy I’ll come to.

00:46:44.767 –> 00:46:47.767
My apologies let me get you a shot as well yeah right

00:46:47.767 –> 00:46:50.487
so if we can find out where the

00:46:50.487 –> 00:46:53.907
root cause of this is it’s going to make it easier is

00:46:53.907 –> 00:46:57.187
it is it a is it a membership thing right like the person doesn’t feel like

00:46:57.187 –> 00:47:00.067
you belong in this group and so they’re going to try to push you out and bully

00:47:00.067 –> 00:47:04.147
you where you see with like office gossip patterns and stuff like that yeah

00:47:04.147 –> 00:47:09.107
but once i know which one of these four issues it is then i can start working

00:47:09.107 –> 00:47:11.867
that system then i can start thinking okay hey, I know what the goal is.

00:47:11.967 –> 00:47:16.387
I need to figure out what rule I broke and how to fix that.

00:47:16.467 –> 00:47:21.787
Or I need to figure out what this person’s status is and how I can adjust myself

00:47:21.787 –> 00:47:23.687
to it to make this function. Yeah.

00:47:26.698 –> 00:47:34.338
For the women out there dealing with abusive boyfriends, family members,

00:47:34.978 –> 00:47:42.438
spouses, relative to de-escalation, what would be your top bit of advice there?

00:47:42.438 –> 00:47:48.738
My top bit of advice, I think, in that situation is that there has to be another

00:47:48.738 –> 00:47:51.038
step past just de-escalation.

00:47:51.578 –> 00:47:56.538
What people tend to do is they tend to go to their highest level of comfort

00:47:56.538 –> 00:48:02.658
in conflict and then just bounce around at that level without cycling to the next level, right?

00:48:02.658 –> 00:48:08.018
So if you’re in a, if you’re honestly, if you’re in a domestic abuse cycle,

00:48:08.258 –> 00:48:10.098
you know, de-escalation probably better than I do.

00:48:10.258 –> 00:48:13.398
You know how to calm the person down because that’s, that’s right.

00:48:13.498 –> 00:48:14.838
Like they’ve done it more than me.

00:48:15.358 –> 00:48:22.218
But if, if any tactic, any tactic, whether it’s avoidance, de-escalation,

00:48:22.478 –> 00:48:26.058
whether it’s choking, whatever, if it’s not working after a certain point,

00:48:26.198 –> 00:48:30.138
it’s not time to triple down on it. It’s time to move on to the next thing.

00:48:30.658 –> 00:48:34.518
And this is where people get in trouble is, you know, they’re like,

00:48:34.618 –> 00:48:35.738
well, I tried to deescalate.

00:48:35.878 –> 00:48:38.338
And then the guy just started punching me. And so I kept deescalating.

00:48:38.418 –> 00:48:40.698
Like, why are you deescalating? It’s now you got to fight.

00:48:40.858 –> 00:48:44.078
Like there’s you need to be able to jump to the next level.

00:48:44.238 –> 00:48:48.738
So my advice would be if you’ve already masterfully deescalated this person,

00:48:48.738 –> 00:48:50.498
you have to do it every single week.

00:48:51.249 –> 00:48:55.709
De-escalation isn’t working because it’s not changing the behavior of this person.

00:48:55.869 –> 00:48:58.209
You’re just maintaining the status quo.

00:48:58.429 –> 00:49:03.149
You might need to take a deep look and say, hey, all right, what’s the next step?

00:49:03.369 –> 00:49:06.569
Because I can’t spend my life walking on eggshells forever.

00:49:07.049 –> 00:49:08.969
Yeah, that’s a great point.

00:49:09.489 –> 00:49:14.909
Randy, this has been good, man. Another, I was wondering if we could get through

00:49:14.909 –> 00:49:20.089
a whole nother podcast on de-escalation, but I think we’ve just proven that

00:49:20.089 –> 00:49:22.969
we can. because it’s, it’s endless, right?

00:49:23.149 –> 00:49:27.729
And it’s an important skill that I don’t know that everyone possesses,

00:49:27.809 –> 00:49:32.429
but hopefully after listening to these, they’re thinking about things and how

00:49:32.429 –> 00:49:35.869
they could go about things different, if nothing else, like, you know,

00:49:36.409 –> 00:49:41.369
taking a break, breathing, keeping the ego in check, and certainly focusing

00:49:41.369 –> 00:49:45.869
on the conversation at hand and not being, you know, thinking about what you

00:49:45.869 –> 00:49:49.709
can say next or being on your smartphone, responding to texts,

00:49:49.889 –> 00:49:51.229
you know, of those sorts of things.

00:49:51.489 –> 00:49:55.549
So this has been good. And I appreciate you jumping on here again.

00:49:55.729 –> 00:50:02.869
Like we’re on this path of one time of year at this point. I love it. Anytime you want me.

00:50:03.269 –> 00:50:06.569
I love it. Once a year, at least for sure. Yeah, definitely.

00:50:07.269 –> 00:50:12.009
I appreciate you being here. How can people find you? Get, get ahold of you.

00:50:12.789 –> 00:50:17.249
Easiest way, Jim is just to go to either. Well, honestly, randykinglive.com

00:50:17.249 –> 00:50:20.229
routes to my website. So just go to randykinglive.com.

00:50:20.829 –> 00:50:25.169
It’s easy to remember. Or social media. All the same thing. Unless you’re on

00:50:25.169 –> 00:50:28.789
TikTok. If your listeners are on TikTok. Then I’m at…

00:50:30.211 –> 00:50:36.191
Talks with dad and it’s actually my daughter’s channel and she she asked me

00:50:36.191 –> 00:50:39.391
self-defense questions and then i asked them so we’re on there as well as your

00:50:39.391 –> 00:50:40.871
kick talker that’s awesome,

00:50:41.631 –> 00:50:46.431
randy i appreciate it good talking to you again and uh hopefully we’ll do this

00:50:46.431 –> 00:50:53.171
again next year in 2023 it’s a date sounds good thanks so much.