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Hello and welcome to another episode of the self-initiative project podcast

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i’m your host jim o’brien hey and welcome back i’ve got my good guest back again

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miss kelly sear from the Diamond Arrow Group, and you’ve got a new buck out, don’t you?

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I do, I do. Sharp women. You know, I was looking things up today again,

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and it has been nearly two years since the last time we talked.

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We did a podcast, it was my podcast, 25 on situational awareness.

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Can you believe it’s been nearly two years ago since the first time we talked?

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No, I can’t. And I say that with the whole pandemic and everything,

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I feel like I lost two years. We really could have.

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Been talking last month and it would still feel the same it’s a blur crazy i know yeah i know,

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so we want to talk about your book we’ve got a lot of stuff to talk about i

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think but again you know we we probably don’t have to do a deep dive if they

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want to know everything they can go back to that podcast 25 but just a little

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short intro on you and who you are and what you’re doing and And then tell us

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a little bit about your book.

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Sure. So yeah, it was a quick 30,000 foot view. I started a company called the

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Diamond Hero Group five years ago now. Wow.

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Because I had taken a self-defense class and when they made kind of that comment

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that involved an assumption definition, you know, you don’t want to get into a physical site.

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You need to be more situationally aware and then send this on our way.

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And for me, I was like, okay, but what does that mean? What is.

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What am I looking for? How do I know if I’m looking for the right thing?

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How do I know what I should do if I see something?

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And that really started a journey for me that led me now to the book because

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as I was learning the information, it was from a very tactical or technical means.

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And I had to break it down and say, well, okay, how do I relate that very almost

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militaristic urban warfare mindset to my everyday life.

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I go about my day and I have threats that I deal with.

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And so how can I correlate some of those foundational skills to my everyday life?

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And as I shared what I was learning, more and more people found me,

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found my social pages, found my website, found my newsletter.

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And it’s really grown from there slowly and steadily.

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Again, with the pandemic, that put a little bit of a pause for my work because

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I couldn’t get out and train. I couldn’t get out and do classes.

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And the silver lining was I got frustrated and said, well, if I can’t do this,

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I’m going to write a book because I know this information still needs to get out there.

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And so took that time of frustrated not being able to go and turn it into a

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motivation to write a book. And here we are.

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Now, I started that writing journey in January of 2021.

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And I can’t believe it’s been that long ago. I know.

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I know. and you know and that

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was the first attempt and then i

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stopped for a while yeah and then i really put the

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put the pedal to the metal again last july so

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really july of 2021 is when sharp women the book started in the outline form

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started in that brainstorming what what do i want it to look like how do i want

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it formatted what are the most important stories what are the top topics that i can share.

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And I had a word count limit. So it’s interesting to me, because I could have

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written probably twice the size of the book, but just in the constraints that I had.

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So it forced me to be very clear, very concise, very, okay, you have to focus.

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You can’t go on and ramble about stuff for many, many words,

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because you don’t have enough words.

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So that was actually a good thing, to having those definitive boundaries

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and yeah the book launched end

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of February in ebook format it hit bestsellers status in the ebook realm and

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then that’s awesome you know Amazon yeah thank you Amazon has its processes

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so it then we were able to release it in paperback and it just released I think

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a week ago in the hardcover format and yeah.

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No, I was just going to say, yeah, I actually went out to Amazon just earlier

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this week, and sure enough, there it is.

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I was like, cool, because, you know, I have the Kindle version of it or whatever

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they call it, the Audible, whatever it is.

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But, yeah, I saw that it’s available on Kindle, soft cover, and hard cover. So that’s great.

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And all five-star reviews, and rightfully so.

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Woo-hoo. Yeah, no, it’s going great. The reviews, it’s been very humbling.

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Some of the reviews and also affirming like, yes, I wasn’t crazy and thinking

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that other women wanted this information and the way I deliver it, the way I tell stories,

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my perspective on things is helping and it is reaching the people, my intended market,

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you know, women who don’t have a martial arts background, women who don’t have

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a law enforcement or military background and still need this information in

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a way that they can easily digest and apply.

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And that’s really the feedback I’ve been getting. So it’s been fantastic.

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And I’m so excited. You know, it’s kind of weird because I had the big launch

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party on International Women’s Day on March 8th.

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And it was great. We packed the house.

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We had music. We had, you know, I gave a little keynote.

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I had another friend of mine who had written a book, gave her keynote.

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And it was a big party. And it was great.

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We were able to donate, you know, $5,000 for a local domestic violence shelter

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from the profits of the event.

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And it was, it was wonderful. And now it’s kind of been amazing.

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Zero to 100. And I’m just so excited to be proactively out there calling colleges, calling businesses,

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calling anyone and saying, hey, just if you want a tool that people will actually

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want and will actually save their lives, potentially save their lives or lives

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with the loved ones, I have a resource that you can check out. Yeah.

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You make a great point, too, and it’s something that I’ve been trying to just

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keep in the back of my mind as we go on this journey.

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Like, I’m just an average Joe, right? Like, I don’t have former LE experience,

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military experience. I’m not like some grand master martial artist, whatever.

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Like, I consider myself an average Joe, and I think there’s such a need to reach

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that audience, right? And so

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it’s great that you’ve been able to do that through this vehicle, right?

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And, you know, reading the book,

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as I was just telling you before we got started, like, I’m not a reader.

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Like, I have to really be into subject matter or at least take interest in a subject matter.

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And so, you know, I knew the topic of situational awareness was of interest to me.

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But I was like, man, I’ve got like five other books right now,

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business-related books that I need to be reading. reading, and I’m choking on,

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you know, like, I’m reading this Start With Why from Simon Sinek,

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or however you pronounce his name, if I mess that up, sorry.

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But, you know, I’m reading on that. I’m reading, you know, multiple things,

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and I was like, oh, I gotta read one more.

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You know, as I was saying, I got into it. And first of all, I didn’t know you

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were boxed into the length of the book that it was. So that’s interesting.

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But, you know, it’s very digestible, 160 pages or so.

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But I remember getting into the book about page 50, 55, and I’d pick it up and

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put it down, pick it up and put it down.

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And I was digging it, you know, so far, but I just couldn’t really dedicate.

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Find myself committed and dedicated to getting through it.

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And then along about page 60, 65, not that there was anything of notoriety there

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because it’s all pretty solid, right?

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But at that point, it was on a Sunday and I just plowed through the entire thing.

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I was like, wow, that was, and it was funny as I was telling you because in

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a message, I don’t remember if we were emailing or an Instagram,

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whatever. But you said you’re going to get sucked in.

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It’s an easy read or something to that effect.

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And sure enough, I got sucked in and didn’t put it down. And it’s great.

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And, you know, like I said, it’s a very digestible 160 pages full of fantastic

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stories that I think a lot.

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You know, I say this positively in the back of my mind,

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I’m thinking kind of unfortunately, but it’s packed through a lot of notes and

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stories that I think more people than I would like to think can relate to or

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know somebody that’s been through something similar.

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And for me being the male person, you know, I’m looking at this stuff for the

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first time going, wow, I’m able to see or this is helping me be better able

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to see things from the other side of the table, so to speak, too,

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right, which seems fascinating.

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Not to be, maybe I just haven’t read enough things, right?

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But for me, it was kind of eye opening to have the opportunity to spin the lazy

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Susan and be able to better see things from a woman’s perspective.

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So as a man reading the book, I had a lot of takeaways as well.

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And that’s what we’re here to talk about.

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Well, thank you. That’s a huge compliment. I mean, that’s

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awesome because I did write with the intent of women

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reading it and I have had a couple men

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read it one of which was my husband yeah yeah and that’s

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that’s all great reviews there right right you got to take a little bit of grain

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of salt with that but even with his perspective and he has the full 20-year

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military background he has the full you know current law enforcement background

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and in 26 six years. So he’s seen a lot.

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And for him to say, wow, that still helped me see things from another perspective

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is really the ultimate goal. Because I think so much of.

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Difficult conversations come from lack of understanding the other person’s perspective.

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And if we can say, hey, no, this is not you against me or us against them.

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It’s, hey, here’s my perspective. And if you can understand it and if I can

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help you see that perspective in a way that’s not condescending,

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that’s not, you know, like putting you on the defensive.

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Well, then it reaches the goal. That’s what we want.

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Then men can be those upstanders, quote unquote,

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because they’ll say, oh, now I understand why when a female says this or a female

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does this or responds this way, there’s more to it than, oh,

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she’s overreacting or you’re reading too much into it.

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Is like, there’s a lot under that to unpack.

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And while you might not have the opportunity to unpack or have the personal

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relationship with that person to understand their perspective,

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but at least you can say, oh, okay, well,

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now I have a little bit of a generic understanding from Kelly’s book,

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but this is how women might see this. And that helped me help them.

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Yeah. And that kind of triggers another thought that I had is that,

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you know, So relationships are hard, right?

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Male and female relationships are hard. And a lot of that difficulty stems from

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the fact is that we’re a lot different in many, many ways, right?

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And men like to complain that it’s almost next to impossible to understand a woman.

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And i and i and i tend to agree with that a little

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bit being a guy but you know i think the book you know when you’re in a relationship

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and you’re having that dialogue and back and forth and you’re dealing with a

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living breathing human being of the opposite sex i think that’s,

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difficult in and of itself and i don’t know exactly how i want to say what i want to say but,

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The dealing with the actual relationship can be challenging, right?

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And it’s difficult to spin that lazy Susan and see things from that other person’s

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perspective when you’re dealing with the actual individual and the actual relationship.

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But I think that was, for me, being a male, trying to see it from the female’s perspective.

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For me, reading the book, it was a lot more digestible and easy to have those

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takeaways. Does that make sense?

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Like, it’s just an easier way to see the other side without having to have an

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argument over it, right?

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Right. Well, and that’s the thing. This is like friend Kelly having a conversation

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versus your loved one versus, you know, that person that you live with.

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Like you can put the book down if you don’t like what I’m saying,

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but you can’t necessarily not talk to your partner for the rest of the night,

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you know, or your life. So, no, that’s awesome.

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And, you know, that’s, like I said, the ultimate goal of the book is like,

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let’s have these conversations.

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We have to start looking and considering the way things look.

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In reality, and how they start small. Yeah.

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And I think so much of it is empathy, right? Especially, you know,

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you asked me to think of this from the male perspective, right?

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I think the book could bring a lot of, a lot more, should I say,

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empathy towards women and situations they find themselves in,

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their perspectives and viewpoints on things.

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And, you know, as trivial as it seems, when I think about reading your book,

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there was a story towards the end.

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I don’t remember exactly where it was, but it was the guy that was just,

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you know, my takeaway is he was being really insistent that he needed to be

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helpful to this lady that was stranded on the side of the road, changing her own tires.

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And he was, you know, supposedly just trying to be helpful. Right. And I get it.

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But then in in there, you lay it out from what she may have been feeling and

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seeing in that situation.

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And holy shit, it just puts a whole different like, yeah, when they say,

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no, I don’t need your help. It’s cool to drive on. Right.

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Because you don’t want to creep them out and you want to give them the chance and they’re OK.

00:15:02.623 –> 00:15:07.743
Right. Like it was just it was kind of an eye opening opportunity talking about empathy.

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Right. like trying to see it from the other person’s perspective right and and for the listeners.

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What I love about that story, and I’m so thankful that I decided to put it in

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the book, is because I heard the story from a male perspective.

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So a little backstory, I was doing a training at a local company and this gentleman

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shared this story and he was a younger guy.

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And he was completely coming from a, I was just trying to help.

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I was raised to be a gentleman. I was raised to help, you know,

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when I see someone who needs help.

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And so I firmly believe that he had complete good intentions in helping this

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woman get her tire changed.

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And so it was the opportunity when he told this story for me to say,

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OK, let me give you a different perspective.

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So in the book, the female perspective is kind of me putting her in me,

00:16:07.976 –> 00:16:10.236
putting myself in her shoes because I didn’t actually need her.

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I didn’t actually know what she felt. So I was guessing.

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And from the way he was describing her body language, the way he was describing

00:16:18.296 –> 00:16:22.116
how she said things, is I could put myself in her shoes.

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And it is kind of, it was fun to write that part of the book,

00:16:25.916 –> 00:16:30.536
write that story, because I was able to say, you know, from the perspective

00:16:30.536 –> 00:16:33.556
of his, it’s like, well, gosh, there’s not very many cars on this road.

00:16:33.656 –> 00:16:35.976
She might be stranded a while. There’s not houses nearby.

00:16:36.196 –> 00:16:40.256
Sure. And then from and being in like, well, those are all things that tell

00:16:40.256 –> 00:16:43.516
me I should help her because it might not be anyone else to help her.

00:16:44.250 –> 00:16:47.450
For a long time but then from her perspective

00:16:47.450 –> 00:16:50.410
that whole there’s not many cars on this road there’s not many houses

00:16:50.410 –> 00:16:53.170
nearby oh my gosh he could kill me and

00:16:53.170 –> 00:16:56.090
nobody would find me for days not to mention he’s come by

00:16:56.090 –> 00:16:58.950
twice now there’s something might be up with this

00:16:58.950 –> 00:17:05.070
right like right like is he kind of stalking me is he you know evaluating me

00:17:05.070 –> 00:17:09.890
is he a predator and so having that perspective shift of the state is you know

00:17:09.890 –> 00:17:15.250
it’s the same information but viewed two different ways and how that those two

00:17:15.250 –> 00:17:17.730
different views can be completely opposite of each other.

00:17:18.190 –> 00:17:22.770
Not wrong. Neither one of them were wrong. Right. It was just a different perspective.

00:17:23.550 –> 00:17:26.690
Yeah. And I, I would hope because it certainly did for me.

00:17:26.870 –> 00:17:29.990
Right. And I, and I’ve thought about it before, but reading it,

00:17:30.110 –> 00:17:30.830
you know, I’m like, yeah,

00:17:31.070 –> 00:17:35.790
like I’m hoping that men look at that story or any other and say,

00:17:35.990 –> 00:17:41.070
okay, when I’m feeling or thinking I need to do this thing or be this person

00:17:41.070 –> 00:17:42.330
for this other individual.

00:17:43.030 –> 00:17:46.750
Let me take a moment and see how they might be seeing the situation and then

00:17:46.750 –> 00:17:51.210
realize, okay, as much as I want to help, maybe I should just back off and be

00:17:51.210 –> 00:17:55.730
cool because they’re approaching me the way that they need to be or the way

00:17:55.730 –> 00:17:56.730
they feel they need to be.

00:17:56.810 –> 00:17:59.810
And that’s more important than my need to help them, right?

00:18:01.050 –> 00:18:05.270
Right. And, you know, and we could go on on that conversation of,

00:18:05.650 –> 00:18:10.550
well, if you felt really concerned, say, you know what, I’m going to sit over here in my car.

00:18:10.730 –> 00:18:13.330
I just want to make sure you’re safe while you’re changing your tire.

00:18:13.470 –> 00:18:17.470
Or do you have a cell phone? Is it charged? Is it working?

00:18:17.830 –> 00:18:21.490
Like, if you can’t get that changed, do you have someone you can call?

00:18:21.690 –> 00:18:24.350
Or would you like me to call a tow truck? Would you like me?

00:18:24.530 –> 00:18:28.830
You can offer things that don’t involve physically changing the tire yourself.

00:18:28.830 –> 00:18:31.170
And that gives the person,

00:18:31.855 –> 00:18:35.535
You know, the person stranded on the side of the road options that they can

00:18:35.535 –> 00:18:39.995
pick what they feel comfortable with, but without you forcing the decision on

00:18:39.995 –> 00:18:41.775
them. Yeah, absolutely.

00:18:43.115 –> 00:18:48.855
So, you know, one of the points that you make and, you know,

00:18:48.895 –> 00:18:50.915
if you’re in the space, you hear it regularly.

00:18:51.235 –> 00:18:55.095
Right. But I think in the self-defense community, we get caught up in the bad

00:18:55.095 –> 00:18:59.635
guys wearing the ski mask and jumping out from behind the bushes or grabbing

00:18:59.635 –> 00:19:06.055
you in the white windowless candy van, you know, which seems to be a thing in some schools.

00:19:06.055 –> 00:19:10.975
But the reality of it is, and I forget the percentages, I think it’s like,

00:19:11.095 –> 00:19:16.235
what did you say, between 70 and 80 percent of attacks on women are from someone

00:19:16.235 –> 00:19:18.195
they know, whether it’s the drunk uncle,

00:19:18.595 –> 00:19:21.195
the ex, the coworker, whatever.

00:19:22.168 –> 00:19:27.588
And that only 21% of attacks happen from perfectly good strangers, right?

00:19:27.748 –> 00:19:31.088
And we’ll talk more about the stranger thing, because that’s the one point that

00:19:31.088 –> 00:19:34.528
I first thought I disagreed with you on. But we’ll do that here in a minute.

00:19:34.648 –> 00:19:39.148
But, you know, your book starts out with a story. I think her name was Daria.

00:19:39.348 –> 00:19:40.628
Is that right? Daria and Mitchell?

00:19:41.108 –> 00:19:47.328
Daria. Daria. It’s not her real name, but yes. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Julie and Bob.

00:19:48.028 –> 00:19:51.948
Yeah. Yeah. Well, you can use Daria as not her real name. That’s why it’s in the book.

00:19:52.828 –> 00:19:58.748
Darian Mitchell, pretty much the crux of chapter one.

00:19:59.248 –> 00:20:05.888
And as I was reading this story, I couldn’t help but think that this sort of

00:20:05.888 –> 00:20:10.588
thing happens more oftentimes than we ever think it does, right?

00:20:10.588 –> 00:20:15.828
And it’s all behind closed doors as it usually those sorts of things seem to usually be.

00:20:16.048 –> 00:20:21.448
But I just had this chill. I don’t know what about the story made me think that,

00:20:21.608 –> 00:20:25.868
but that was my takeaway from the first chapter is like, you know,

00:20:26.028 –> 00:20:29.588
and you give your trigger warning and that’s great because I’m sure there’s

00:20:29.588 –> 00:20:34.248
going to be others that can relate to that story either directly in some shape,

00:20:34.388 –> 00:20:38.288
form or fashion or that they know somebody that has a similar story. Right.

00:20:38.528 –> 00:20:44.188
And unfortunately, that’s more oftentimes the case with women, isn’t it? Yeah.

00:20:44.528 –> 00:20:48.848
Yeah. I mean, there’s a lot of and it kind of goes into where I talk about the

00:20:48.848 –> 00:20:50.928
social mores and contracts.

00:20:52.960 –> 00:20:57.000
You know, and I don’t want to get on a pedestal when I talk about marriage,

00:20:57.020 –> 00:21:01.860
but there is this pressure to say, if you’re married, you’re married to life

00:21:01.860 –> 00:21:04.260
and you work it out and through sick and thin, good or bad,

00:21:04.600 –> 00:21:08.820
you know, health and illness, all these things, sickness and health.

00:21:09.720 –> 00:21:14.540
And so while that is completely, I agree, it’s commendable, all those awesome

00:21:14.540 –> 00:21:21.720
things, but that can also get used against individuals who are in a domestically

00:21:21.720 –> 00:21:24.020
abusive relationship. And this goes for guys, too.

00:21:24.360 –> 00:21:30.120
It’s ironic, the more I’m digging in, there’s behaviors from females that I’m

00:21:30.120 –> 00:21:31.840
like, that is a controlling behavior.

00:21:32.000 –> 00:21:35.960
Oh, yeah. That is an emotionally abusive behavior.

00:21:36.500 –> 00:21:41.760
But again, it’s not talked about. It’s not recognized. And so then it’s put

00:21:41.760 –> 00:21:44.080
into a corner or it’s brushed away.

00:21:44.320 –> 00:21:48.180
And I think there are a lot of people who are in relationships.

00:21:49.148 –> 00:21:53.388
And because they love this person, because they’re like, okay,

00:21:53.448 –> 00:21:59.108
he or she is just going through a bad spell, you know, and that’s part of the cycle of abuse.

00:21:59.388 –> 00:22:02.628
And, you know, we could talk for hours just on that alone. Yeah.

00:22:03.088 –> 00:22:09.288
But I that’s where it comes down to is if someone comes to you and in confidence

00:22:09.288 –> 00:22:15.768
and shares something that that took a lot of guts, like that took a lot to get to that point,

00:22:15.888 –> 00:22:19.028
because it’s scary saying that because there’s a lot of guilt.

00:22:19.028 –> 00:22:20.128
Like, well, what did I do?

00:22:20.608 –> 00:22:28.168
How did I, I’m this successful, you know, entrepreneur or upstanding citizen in the community.

00:22:28.828 –> 00:22:33.668
And who’s going to believe that this is happening to me behind closed doors?

00:22:34.008 –> 00:22:36.988
Or what is that going to do to my reputation in the community?

00:22:37.088 –> 00:22:40.608
Like, oh, we thought she was a strong-willed woman.

00:22:40.608 –> 00:22:46.268
And so there’s a lot of fear about coming out and being honest about it and

00:22:46.268 –> 00:22:52.328
that fallout socially, I mean, on top of emotional and financially and,

00:22:52.328 –> 00:22:54.028
you know, if there’s physical abuse.

00:22:54.568 –> 00:22:58.848
Because, yeah, if you don’t put that good front when you’re out in the community

00:22:58.848 –> 00:23:04.368
and out seeing people with family, with friends, then you may pay for it when you get home. Yeah.

00:23:04.948 –> 00:23:08.008
So it’s this really interesting, I shouldn’t say interesting,

00:23:08.208 –> 00:23:13.208
that’s almost a flattering word to use, but it’s this really difficult place

00:23:13.208 –> 00:23:16.048
to be in because as much as you want to tell someone and want help.

00:23:16.893 –> 00:23:22.573
You also know that it’s got to kind of rip the Band-Aid off in Darius’ sense

00:23:22.573 –> 00:23:24.733
of how it all transpired.

00:23:24.793 –> 00:23:29.073
And I don’t want to ruin the punchline for the listeners. You’re going to have to buy the book. Right.

00:23:29.673 –> 00:23:37.273
It literally was like a switch. Like, okay, done. And now I need to get the heck away.

00:23:37.633 –> 00:23:40.113
And I need to, you know, go into hiding.

00:23:40.513 –> 00:23:44.893
And that was, to do that, that’s a lot.

00:23:45.273 –> 00:23:48.873
Yeah. a lot of work well you

00:23:48.873 –> 00:23:51.853
know in society right like i think that story mentioned

00:23:51.853 –> 00:23:57.713
the fact that you know her her abuser her husband her you know turned out to

00:23:57.713 –> 00:24:02.753
be husband right got got to that point was in law enforcement they were she

00:24:02.753 –> 00:24:07.193
was a pretty strong businesswoman herself right they were seen i think you use

00:24:07.193 –> 00:24:11.353
the terms of the power couple in town right like they were viewed that way.

00:24:11.813 –> 00:24:15.333
And, you know, you got to figure that coupled with, you know,

00:24:15.473 –> 00:24:20.073
maybe some religious expectations put on their marriage too.

00:24:20.353 –> 00:24:24.893
There’s a lot that makes folks feel like they’re stuck, right?

00:24:26.233 –> 00:24:33.033
And that’s true whether man or woman, but I do think, and you mentioned it already,

00:24:33.213 –> 00:24:37.713
but I do think that’s the difference. And that was a takeaway for me too.

00:24:37.853 –> 00:24:43.513
There are so many, as you call out, social wars, so many constraints and expectations,

00:24:43.513 –> 00:24:46.513
the way that you’re raised, that…

00:24:47.429 –> 00:24:52.149
Girls and women deal with and go through that men don’t. You know,

00:24:52.329 –> 00:24:53.489
men are the breadwinners.

00:24:53.669 –> 00:24:57.449
Men are the ones that club you over the head and drag you back to the caves.

00:24:57.609 –> 00:25:03.269
You know, men don’t have those same, you know, we’re not raised in the pink

00:25:03.269 –> 00:25:09.069
dresses and taught to be princess, whatever, you know, it’s completely different

00:25:09.069 –> 00:25:11.869
from men in that regard than it is for women.

00:25:12.069 –> 00:25:16.989
And I’m glad that the book talked about those constraints and expectations,

00:25:16.989 –> 00:25:21.609
because that is a definite difference in society between men and women,

00:25:21.669 –> 00:25:22.809
at least here in the States.

00:25:23.989 –> 00:25:27.169
Right. Yeah, that’s true to point out, like Western civilization.

00:25:27.849 –> 00:25:34.169
And conversely, men are given very specific, well, you are the head of the household,

00:25:34.289 –> 00:25:38.549
so you make the decisions and you are, you know, the one in charge.

00:25:38.729 –> 00:25:43.329
And so what kind of messaging does that send when then it gets twisted in their head?

00:25:43.649 –> 00:25:47.069
Again, perspective, not necessarily wrong. That’s how they were raised.

00:25:47.229 –> 00:25:49.469
That’s the culture of their upbringing, whatever it may be.

00:25:49.929 –> 00:25:55.089
And so what you or I may say, well, that’s controlling.

00:25:55.509 –> 00:26:01.969
Then in all actuality, to them, it’s a completely culturally accepted behavior.

00:26:02.349 –> 00:26:08.849
And so again, men are like, wait, what do you mean that that’s coercive controlling behavior?

00:26:09.689 –> 00:26:14.289
That’s how my dad was. That’s how all the men in my family are.

00:26:14.489 –> 00:26:20.829
And so it’s really about not placing judgment on anyone. It’s really saying.

00:26:21.800 –> 00:26:25.520
You know, getting to the core for that person.

00:26:25.760 –> 00:26:29.880
Like, well, what do you want? How do you feel? And that’s where it gets sticky

00:26:29.880 –> 00:26:31.980
and messy because it all depends.

00:26:32.480 –> 00:26:36.120
You know, there’s no definitive, yes, you should move out. Yes,

00:26:36.200 –> 00:26:36.940
you should get divorced.

00:26:37.360 –> 00:26:42.660
No, you shouldn’t do that. Yes, you should do that because everyone has that different.

00:26:42.840 –> 00:26:47.760
When we talk about the OODA loop, everyone’s orient filter is going to be different

00:26:47.760 –> 00:26:50.220
based on how they were raised. Yeah.

00:26:50.660 –> 00:26:57.480
And, you know, how one is raised applies whether you’re male or female, right?

00:26:57.760 –> 00:27:02.500
But talking about the constraints and social expectations,

00:27:03.020 –> 00:27:07.000
the social mores and whatever, you know, the point that you made in the book,

00:27:07.060 –> 00:27:13.280
which was a takeaway for me, is that those constraints and expectations necessarily,

00:27:13.880 –> 00:27:17.760
unless you’ve sought out training and the education,

00:27:17.760 –> 00:27:24.920
those constraints and expectations and social mores might limit your ability

00:27:24.920 –> 00:27:34.020
to react to bad things or recognize strange behaviors or bad things coming your way.

00:27:34.180 –> 00:27:38.160
And again, this is true for men and women, depending on how you’ve been raised.

00:27:39.517 –> 00:27:43.757
It’s important, you know, and kind of a random thought in this is that,

00:27:44.037 –> 00:27:47.837
you know, this is why thinking through scenarios for yourself,

00:27:48.177 –> 00:27:51.677
you know, kind of getting back to what we should be doing to help ourselves

00:27:51.677 –> 00:27:55.517
avoid these situations or get out of these situations or at least recognize

00:27:55.517 –> 00:27:59.517
them is thinking through scenarios and what you would do, especially if you’ve

00:27:59.517 –> 00:28:01.137
been brought up in a way that,

00:28:01.277 –> 00:28:03.637
you know, these things are all foreign to you.

00:28:03.637 –> 00:28:07.217
This is really a thing that you should be doing for yourself,

00:28:07.477 –> 00:28:09.837
is thinking through scenarios and what you would do.

00:28:09.977 –> 00:28:14.277
And I think in the book, you talk about when you were at the bar and you play

00:28:14.277 –> 00:28:17.177
the game of what would you have said, right? What would you say?

00:28:17.497 –> 00:28:20.857
And that’s just another way of thinking through those scenarios.

00:28:20.857 –> 00:28:25.637
And I know this is kind of getting into the weeds of techniques we can use,

00:28:25.777 –> 00:28:29.997
but the importance of thinking through those scenarios and things that we can do to.

00:28:30.657 –> 00:28:33.817
Better prepare ourselves when our youth

00:28:33.817 –> 00:28:36.917
and our parenting the way we were raised whatever is

00:28:36.917 –> 00:28:40.577
kind of worked against us in a lot of ways right right

00:28:40.577 –> 00:28:44.757
that makes sense in one way because some yeah oh no the mental strategy you’re

00:28:44.757 –> 00:28:49.877
you know your what is it your body can’t go where your mind hasn’t right and

00:28:49.877 –> 00:28:57.737
one example because again things that i was you know the life hacks that we

00:28:57.737 –> 00:28:59.337
think well That’s common sense. Everyone knows.

00:28:59.497 –> 00:29:03.137
And I’m like, oh, wait, they don’t. Like, this is kind of a segue,

00:29:03.317 –> 00:29:07.277
but had a couple friends of ours over last night for dinner.

00:29:07.537 –> 00:29:16.437
And the guy is accepting a new position kind of in the trade industry and teaching

00:29:16.437 –> 00:29:18.137
the next generation in trade.

00:29:18.337 –> 00:29:23.897
Yeah. Really cool. But he goes, what was absolutely mind blowing to me is he

00:29:23.897 –> 00:29:29.957
said, the fact that if I told this, I’ve told this young person,

00:29:30.377 –> 00:29:32.197
hey, can you pull the nails out of this board?

00:29:32.517 –> 00:29:38.897
And instead of grabbing the hammer and using the claw and to get the nail out,

00:29:39.117 –> 00:29:40.917
he was literally pulling with his hand.

00:29:41.650 –> 00:29:44.150
And he goes, it’s just those types of things where you’re like,

00:29:44.330 –> 00:29:48.010
oh, my gosh, he’s never used a hammer before.

00:29:48.250 –> 00:29:51.950
So when I said pull out the nail, he literally thought I meant pull with your

00:29:51.950 –> 00:29:53.030
hands to get the nail out.

00:29:53.190 –> 00:29:56.710
And that’s the kind of thing where we say mental strategy.

00:29:57.030 –> 00:30:02.010
We say, you know, think through what you would say is maybe that seems daunting.

00:30:02.650 –> 00:30:07.310
And then I say, OK, especially to anyone who’s been in a relationship,

00:30:07.330 –> 00:30:11.530
how many times have you thought through an argument, a discussion?

00:30:11.650 –> 00:30:15.810
Before you’ve had the discussion because you wanted to have the good witty comebacks

00:30:15.810 –> 00:30:20.190
or you wanted to have all your facts straight or you wanted to make sure you

00:30:20.190 –> 00:30:22.650
said it in a way that you got your point across.

00:30:22.890 –> 00:30:25.810
So you do this ill every day.

00:30:26.050 –> 00:30:30.990
So now all I need you to do is think about if somebody’s creepy in the elevator,

00:30:31.170 –> 00:30:32.910
what are you going to say instead of getting in the elevator?

00:30:33.090 –> 00:30:38.870
If someone’s standing too close to you and it’s a coworker or it’s a family

00:30:38.870 –> 00:30:40.990
member or if it’s a stranger on the street,

00:30:40.990 –> 00:30:43.950
what are you going to say think through those things it’s

00:30:43.950 –> 00:30:46.910
the same thing and then they kind of laugh and

00:30:46.910 –> 00:30:51.150
like oh yeah i do think through conversations before i have them all the time

00:30:51.150 –> 00:30:58.370
yeah i’m like it’s the same scale same scale yeah and so just to forewarn everyone

00:30:58.370 –> 00:31:04.410
listening so i i read your book i told you before we got started like i think

00:31:04.410 –> 00:31:06.110
i started writing things down.

00:31:06.270 –> 00:31:13.670
I don’t know why, but I started writing things down around about page 25 and

00:31:13.670 –> 00:31:21.170
finished up around 135. So I have like six pages of notes and they’re just random takeaways. And.

00:31:24.321 –> 00:31:30.361
Order of the pages that I read, but for our talk today, I’m kind of all over

00:31:30.361 –> 00:31:32.701
the place. And that’s fine. Yeah.

00:31:33.141 –> 00:31:37.321
So bear with us. My book is not chronological order.

00:31:37.521 –> 00:31:42.121
So you could read a chapter because it pertains to maybe a situation you face

00:31:42.121 –> 00:31:45.701
and it would make sense. You really, you really could.

00:31:46.981 –> 00:31:51.941
You jumping around is totally fine. Yeah. So one thing I didn’t prepare for

00:31:51.941 –> 00:31:56.001
ahead of time, I was going to ask you, and I’ve got it pulled up here.

00:31:56.181 –> 00:31:57.761
Sorry. I think I do anyway.

00:31:58.001 –> 00:32:01.061
I thought I did. Just a second. I want to get this right.

00:32:02.201 –> 00:32:06.261
Chapter two, and I don’t mean to go in order. I’m not trying to do this in order,

00:32:06.321 –> 00:32:09.321
but this chapter stood out to me because I had this question,

00:32:09.321 –> 00:32:14.861
and I think I know the answer already, but chapter two is the real enemy of women.

00:32:16.021 –> 00:32:20.801
And I know you talk about something entirely different than I thought,

00:32:20.901 –> 00:32:28.481
but when I first thought about this, I thought it was ignoring your intuition, but it’s not.

00:32:28.581 –> 00:32:33.321
That was what you thought was the real enemy. That’s what I thought it was going to be.

00:32:34.221 –> 00:32:38.201
Yeah, because we talk about that a lot, right? Especially in context of women.

00:32:38.321 –> 00:32:44.641
I mean, let’s face it, women are known for their intuition, their gut feelings, their spidey senses.

00:32:44.721 –> 00:32:47.781
Well, you know, women never refer to it as spidey senses, but,

00:32:47.881 –> 00:32:52.161
you know, For the guys out there, it’s their spidey sense equivalent, right?

00:32:52.321 –> 00:32:55.421
But that’s what women are known for. And, of course, men have it, too.

00:32:56.891 –> 00:33:02.271
This is what women are known for. So when you said the real enemy is like ignoring

00:33:02.271 –> 00:33:06.471
that, but it, but it’s not, not for my first, not, not in my opinion,

00:33:06.491 –> 00:33:09.131
but I, you know, that’s another very,

00:33:09.391 –> 00:33:12.131
I would say if there was, you know, enemy number two.

00:33:12.591 –> 00:33:17.451
Yeah, no, that was my thing to the dig and get to the foundation of,

00:33:17.611 –> 00:33:20.751
well, then why do they ignore their intuition? Yeah.

00:33:21.191 –> 00:33:24.791
No, I do. They start. So then you got to go a little bit deeper,

00:33:24.791 –> 00:33:30.551
but you know, I made a couple of notes, just my takeaway in general,

00:33:30.571 –> 00:33:32.151
and I kept coming back to it.

00:33:32.191 –> 00:33:36.831
And I even wrote it later in my notes when I was thinking through things like

00:33:36.831 –> 00:33:42.531
really what we’re battling against are those social mores and the way the expectations,

00:33:42.531 –> 00:33:46.511
the lessons, and the things that we give our kids, right?

00:33:46.691 –> 00:33:54.291
Like it really is combating things all the way back to childhood and ingrained,

00:33:54.551 –> 00:33:56.671
the things that are ingrained in us, right?

00:33:56.871 –> 00:33:59.251
And how we’re supposed to react and behave.

00:33:59.551 –> 00:34:04.231
And so I get it now. Like that really is enemy number one.

00:34:04.671 –> 00:34:08.171
I agree. Matter of fact, no, I know.

00:34:08.451 –> 00:34:13.071
I, and you know, I wrote, matter of fact, I wrote my notes. I’ll tell you exactly.

00:34:13.251 –> 00:34:16.631
I said, overall starts with children and it’s programming, right?

00:34:16.771 –> 00:34:19.771
It’s all about the programming. And then when you’re an adult,

00:34:20.051 –> 00:34:25.031
how do you work against the very fiber, the very fabric that you’ve been,

00:34:25.271 –> 00:34:28.691
that has established you as a human being? Right.

00:34:29.251 –> 00:34:34.131
And if you never question that, because we’re all evolving and our opinions

00:34:34.131 –> 00:34:39.731
can change, contrary to what people might say, you can change your opinion.

00:34:40.031 –> 00:34:46.171
You can change your mind. I used the example in the book of the movie Runaway Bride and the eggs.

00:34:46.471 –> 00:34:51.951
How does she like her eggs? and it’s little things like this like that where

00:34:51.951 –> 00:34:55.051
okay well this is the messaging so I like.

00:34:55.712 –> 00:34:58.672
Scrambled eggs. And you just kind of stick with it because you don’t really

00:34:58.672 –> 00:35:01.532
ever go, well, do I really like scrambled eggs?

00:35:01.572 –> 00:35:04.572
Is that really my favorite way to eat eggs?

00:35:04.772 –> 00:35:09.652
Is the favorite way that I want someone to make eggs for me or whatever?

00:35:10.212 –> 00:35:13.012
Or is that what I’ve just been told all along?

00:35:13.692 –> 00:35:21.632
And if we don’t as parents or as society accept that our children naturally

00:35:21.632 –> 00:35:24.952
are going to have a lot of our same attributes, a lot of our same likes,

00:35:25.172 –> 00:35:28.232
because they’re forced, you know, and they’re little.

00:35:28.512 –> 00:35:33.012
They don’t get to decide where we’re going to eat. It’s mom and dad’s deciding.

00:35:33.752 –> 00:35:38.392
But then when they get to be adults, then it’s our responsibility,

00:35:38.812 –> 00:35:43.412
in my opinion, as good parents, guides, guardians,

00:35:44.172 –> 00:35:49.432
mentors, whatever role you play in helping shape the next generation is saying,

00:35:50.312 –> 00:35:52.992
okay, well, do you want to do that?

00:35:53.192 –> 00:35:57.852
Is that what you want to do? Do you want to go to college? Do you want to join the military?

00:35:58.072 –> 00:36:00.132
Do you want to travel? Do you want to.

00:36:01.186 –> 00:36:06.046
You know, go to the trades, whatever it may be, and making sure that they are

00:36:06.046 –> 00:36:10.386
deciding what they want or how they want to live their life.

00:36:10.986 –> 00:36:14.226
Because otherwise it just gets really messy for them and then they can get stuck

00:36:14.226 –> 00:36:16.566
in that people pleasing. Well, that’s what mom wanted me to do.

00:36:16.666 –> 00:36:19.106
That’s what dad wanted me to do. Is that really what I wanted to do?

00:36:19.426 –> 00:36:24.126
You know, and letting them fail, you know, like they are going to fail.

00:36:24.406 –> 00:36:28.266
And not to, I feel like we’re getting off into like a parenting thing. No, no, no.

00:36:28.886 –> 00:36:33.346
No, I think it’s totally important because what comes to mind as I’m listening

00:36:33.346 –> 00:36:36.226
to you and thinking about what you wrote about,

00:36:36.586 –> 00:36:46.326
I distill it down to childhood is about conformity and there is an opportunity.

00:36:46.326 –> 00:36:49.186
And I’m not saying everyone does it wrong.

00:36:49.406 –> 00:36:54.286
I’m not making any judgments when I say this. I’m just saying that it seems

00:36:54.286 –> 00:36:58.046
like if you were to summarize things, a lot of youth is conformity, right?

00:36:58.186 –> 00:37:01.166
And listening and doing what your parents tell you and whatever else.

00:37:01.726 –> 00:37:08.166
There is probably, to your points, I think that at least in part you were trying to make in the book,

00:37:08.326 –> 00:37:13.786
is that there are opportunities for us to do a better job in helping our little

00:37:13.786 –> 00:37:17.566
ones become individuals and their own people, right?

00:37:17.786 –> 00:37:21.886
And that may mean not conforming all the time, right?

00:37:22.826 –> 00:37:24.386
Right. Yeah.

00:37:25.766 –> 00:37:29.506
In my opinion, my role as the mothers, my two boys,

00:37:30.026 –> 00:37:35.706
is to give them responsibilities, teach them roles,

00:37:35.886 –> 00:37:41.526
and to help them discover who they are so that they can go out and be productive

00:37:41.526 –> 00:37:45.826
members of society that are good humans, that care,

00:37:46.126 –> 00:37:49.266
that are strong-willed, that are resilient.

00:37:49.846 –> 00:37:55.966
And that’s not going to happen if I’m telling them how to live their life and

00:37:55.966 –> 00:38:02.566
telling them what they can or can’t do, obviously in the context of ages and

00:38:02.566 –> 00:38:04.426
development. Right. But…

00:38:05.075 –> 00:38:13.215
Is you can’t protect them in a bubble and you also can’t neglect their little

00:38:13.215 –> 00:38:19.815
brains and their developing brains to, you got to help them figure those kinds of things out.

00:38:19.875 –> 00:38:25.275
Otherwise, you’re going to always have that dependent who comes to you and needs

00:38:25.275 –> 00:38:28.755
you to make the decisions for them because they’ve never figured out how to

00:38:28.755 –> 00:38:30.355
make their decisions and what they want.

00:38:31.092 –> 00:38:35.572
Yeah, completely agree. Again, we’re going to be all over the place here.

00:38:35.772 –> 00:38:39.512
So my next thing is, I wanted to start, I wanted to just be able to say,

00:38:39.592 –> 00:38:43.712
I got a bone to pick with you, Kelly, but I really can’t say that because after

00:38:43.712 –> 00:38:46.532
going back and thinking through it again, I was like, okay, no,

00:38:46.632 –> 00:38:50.492
in context, it does make sense. But, and you’re not the first.

00:38:50.732 –> 00:38:53.192
Somebody else might have this, so bring it up. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:38:53.392 –> 00:38:57.992
No, and you’re not the first place I’ve seen it or read it or heard it said,

00:38:57.992 –> 00:39:01.872
But this notion, which, you know, not to date myself, but I’m old,

00:39:02.252 –> 00:39:07.632
you know, this notion of don’t talk to strangers or stranger danger just doesn’t work.

00:39:08.552 –> 00:39:11.572
And I was like, wait a minute, it completely works.

00:39:12.912 –> 00:39:17.232
Because that’s what I was taught when I was little growing up.

00:39:17.232 –> 00:39:22.952
But I do remember very vividly my mom and dad giving me that lesson.

00:39:23.452 –> 00:39:29.912
And it was in context of me being home alone, potentially, or even not, right?

00:39:30.132 –> 00:39:34.052
And someone coming up to our front door and knocking.

00:39:34.412 –> 00:39:39.732
And that I shouldn’t just open the door or engage in a conversation with this

00:39:39.732 –> 00:39:43.632
individual because it was the purest form of stranger, right?

00:39:43.632 –> 00:39:51.652
So in my mind, the don’t talk to stranger completely is effective or could work,

00:39:51.712 –> 00:39:56.492
but I think it’s important that you wrap context around it, because to the points

00:39:56.492 –> 00:39:57.592
that you made in your book,

00:39:57.772 –> 00:40:01.032
we’re interacting with strangers day in and day out,

00:40:01.232 –> 00:40:03.392
as our children are.

00:40:04.532 –> 00:40:09.912
So I get it, but I think the important takeaway there is, again,

00:40:10.052 –> 00:40:14.032
going back to kind of one of the points started out with is that.

00:40:15.383 –> 00:40:20.463
Bad things happen by complete strangers a fraction of the time.

00:40:21.003 –> 00:40:26.303
Bad things more oftentimes happen with people that we do know or that are in

00:40:26.303 –> 00:40:30.683
our lives or worse yet are very close to us in our lives.

00:40:30.783 –> 00:40:36.223
And that’s where I understand that it begins to break down because ultimately

00:40:36.223 –> 00:40:38.803
at the end of the day, you’re playing the averages, right?

00:40:38.803 –> 00:40:41.483
You’re playing the odds like, yeah, don’t talk to strangers,

00:40:41.483 –> 00:40:45.043
but that’s only going to cover about 10 to 20 percent of what you’re going to

00:40:45.043 –> 00:40:46.443
be dealing with out there. Right.

00:40:46.823 –> 00:40:50.803
The other bad things are going to happen to you are going to be happening by

00:40:50.803 –> 00:40:57.923
the neighbor or your doctor or, you know, the drunk aunt or uncle or the ex-boyfriend

00:40:57.923 –> 00:40:59.703
or girlfriend, for that matter.

00:41:00.403 –> 00:41:08.263
Right. Yeah. So when I when I started breaking it down by the chances of something

00:41:08.263 –> 00:41:14.143
happening bad, I was like, OK, the don’t talk to strangers. It’s not that it doesn’t work.

00:41:14.163 –> 00:41:20.283
It just doesn’t cover the majority of what folks likely are to experience in their lifetime.

00:41:21.083 –> 00:41:28.043
Right. And if we’re focused solely on a stranger, what’s the definition of a stranger?

00:41:28.543 –> 00:41:31.423
Kind of to your point of this is, my parents told it to you,

00:41:31.503 –> 00:41:33.583
somebody that came to the door of the

00:41:33.583 –> 00:41:37.403
house, which there just aren’t many door-to-door sales. Not anymore, no.

00:41:38.663 –> 00:41:45.463
That’s not a thing anymore in most places, but it’s the, we have to watch for

00:41:45.463 –> 00:41:46.543
strange behavior. years.

00:41:46.863 –> 00:41:50.083
And that may be kind of going back to our other conversation is,

00:41:50.503 –> 00:41:53.623
okay, that might work in a certain context. But as we get older.

00:41:54.417 –> 00:41:58.597
Part of experiencing life is meeting strangers.

00:41:58.897 –> 00:42:03.237
I’ve gotten to do some really cool, amazing things and go some amazing places

00:42:03.237 –> 00:42:05.837
because I had conversations with strangers.

00:42:06.077 –> 00:42:11.717
Yeah. Who, you know, built relationships, became mentors, whatever it may be. Sure.

00:42:11.977 –> 00:42:17.097
And so it makes me sad to think that there are people who don’t like talking

00:42:17.097 –> 00:42:20.837
to people they don’t know out of fear. Like, yeah, introvert,

00:42:21.017 –> 00:42:21.797
you don’t want to talk to people?

00:42:22.137 –> 00:42:28.297
Totally get it. You know? Yeah. Again, context matters, but to me, again,

00:42:28.777 –> 00:42:33.657
if you want to talk to people is to have that ability, like it’s your choice

00:42:33.657 –> 00:42:37.617
not to talk to people, not because you’re afraid to talk to people. Yeah.

00:42:38.222 –> 00:42:43.722
Yeah, that’s a good point. So this next point that I want us to chat through

00:42:43.722 –> 00:42:51.222
that struck me as interesting is that you talk about this time that you and a friend,

00:42:51.242 –> 00:42:54.722
and I just, I don’t know where you were or what you were doing,

00:42:54.722 –> 00:42:57.902
just what was in my head as I was reading the story.

00:42:57.902 –> 00:43:00.402
I pictured you outside on the

00:43:00.402 –> 00:43:05.562
sidewalk, and you were engrossed in deep conversation with your friend.

00:43:05.922 –> 00:43:11.682
And this perfectly good stranger walked up and asked, I forget what the question

00:43:11.682 –> 00:43:15.862
was he asked, but basically he was interrupting the conversation.

00:43:16.322 –> 00:43:21.702
And you guys just pretty much blew him off, right? And you go on to just— Oh,

00:43:21.782 –> 00:43:23.342
this is the Girl Scout cookie.

00:43:23.782 –> 00:43:32.802
Yes, yes, yes. Okay. And he was, you know, you wound up noticing that he was

00:43:32.802 –> 00:43:36.682
dressed poorly, probably a street guy, right?

00:43:37.322 –> 00:43:42.282
And I was thinking to myself, okay, well, would you have, and you know,

00:43:42.482 –> 00:43:45.682
you talk about one of the points that you’re talking about in the book is the

00:43:45.682 –> 00:43:52.502
right to be direct and being direct isn’t being rude, but you’re well within your right to be direct.

00:43:52.502 –> 00:43:56.002
And who cares if they get offended or whatever else, if it makes you better

00:43:56.002 –> 00:44:00.522
or preserves your space, however you want to frame that right.

00:44:00.762 –> 00:44:07.522
But when I was reading that, I’m like, OK, were you direct and firm with him

00:44:07.522 –> 00:44:12.762
because you observed the fact that he was a street person approaching you and

00:44:12.762 –> 00:44:13.982
interrupting your conversation?

00:44:13.982 –> 00:44:20.082
Like, would you have been, you know, the direct asshole if he had been a good

00:44:20.082 –> 00:44:24.922
looking guy in a three piece suit coming up to you guys to strike up conversation?

00:44:25.422 –> 00:44:27.382
And then, you know, is that.

00:44:28.121 –> 00:44:31.781
All the more reason why you need to be paying attention to your surrounding

00:44:31.781 –> 00:44:37.121
is so that you can acknowledge when you need to exercise your right to be direct

00:44:37.121 –> 00:44:43.761
and enforce your boundaries versus being a little bit more open to interaction. Does that make sense?

00:44:44.761 –> 00:44:47.701
Yes. Yep. Nope. And I love it. I think that’s a great question.

00:44:47.941 –> 00:44:51.201
And what’s so fascinating to me is I actually want to pull my book out right

00:44:51.201 –> 00:44:52.421
now and be like, wait a minute.

00:44:52.561 –> 00:44:56.641
Did I describe that gentleman as a street person? Well, I don’t know that you

00:44:56.641 –> 00:44:59.241
said street, but you did describe him.

00:44:59.401 –> 00:45:02.061
It’s around page 64, by the way, if you want to know.

00:45:03.701 –> 00:45:06.501
That’s funny. Don’t ask. And for your listeners, follow along.

00:45:06.541 –> 00:45:10.901
Right, follow along. 64. Right. I told you I took copious notes.

00:45:12.261 –> 00:45:17.041
Yeah, I can’t remember exactly, but I think you said something about the way

00:45:17.041 –> 00:45:21.621
he was dressed or maybe the fact that it was evident he had not had a shower

00:45:21.621 –> 00:45:23.701
recently, whatever it was.

00:45:23.701 –> 00:45:28.121
And I thought, well, you’ve got to be paying attention to your surroundings

00:45:28.121 –> 00:45:31.901
to some degree to even pick that up, pick up on that. Right.

00:45:33.121 –> 00:45:37.821
But would that have changed your reaction? I think it would help with context

00:45:37.821 –> 00:45:46.181
because I honestly, so yes, we were standing on a sidewalk outside of the entrance to this area.

00:45:46.481 –> 00:45:50.281
And, you know, like I said, it’s kind of one of those buildings that has a strip

00:45:50.281 –> 00:45:52.301
mall, but it’s got, oh, it’s got the coffee shop inside.

00:45:52.441 –> 00:45:55.421
And there’s the, you know, in Minnesota, our liquor stores are separate,

00:45:55.621 –> 00:45:58.901
sort of separate entrance to the liquor store, but it was all right there.

00:45:59.041 –> 00:46:03.221
And we were doing our long goodbye on the sidewalk after we had had coffee.

00:46:03.221 –> 00:46:06.061
And so actually my backwards,

00:46:06.912 –> 00:46:10.512
towards him or like i was kind of bladed i

00:46:10.512 –> 00:46:13.692
would say because i don’t like standing with my back to doors anywhere

00:46:13.692 –> 00:46:16.812
but so i didn’t actually

00:46:16.812 –> 00:46:20.352
see or visually judge

00:46:20.352 –> 00:46:25.352
him yeah until he interrupted us and it was hey you guys selling girl scout

00:46:25.352 –> 00:46:32.152
cookies and then i turned to look at him and i said no yeah and and he was like

00:46:32.152 –> 00:46:39.112
no no are you selling girl scout cookies uh no no and then And then he got kind of like annoyed,

00:46:39.132 –> 00:46:41.792
as I would describe it, and said.

00:46:42.672 –> 00:46:46.412
I was, geez, lady, I was just trying to make conversation. And I said, yes, or yep.

00:46:46.912 –> 00:46:52.072
And he went on his way. And as he was walking, you know, in my peripheral and

00:46:52.072 –> 00:46:55.072
then confirmed as he was walking away, he had come from the liquor store.

00:46:55.232 –> 00:46:57.492
It was nine o’clock on a Friday morning. And he had a brown bag.

00:46:57.712 –> 00:47:00.212
That’s right. He was drinking a little early.

00:47:00.752 –> 00:47:07.932
Maybe. Yeah. Right. But again, I don’t remember him looking bad or looking like he hadn’t showered.

00:47:08.072 –> 00:47:12.072
And then I remember doing an Instagram video actually right after that and saying,

00:47:12.172 –> 00:47:15.672
I’m not here to judge. You could have worked the midnight shift and that’s your happy hour.

00:47:16.212 –> 00:47:19.672
Serious. Like there’s bars. It’s five o’clock somewhere.

00:47:20.572 –> 00:47:25.492
It is, exactly. They would have happy hours from 8 to 10 in the morning because

00:47:25.492 –> 00:47:26.972
the night shift was getting off.

00:47:27.372 –> 00:47:31.412
And so it’s like, well, just because they’re getting off at a random hour in

00:47:31.412 –> 00:47:34.732
the rest of the world in the morning, that’s their evening.

00:47:34.892 –> 00:47:39.892
So I said that, I’m not going to judge. You do you. Maybe you’re on vacation. Right.

00:47:40.914 –> 00:47:46.714
The sole thing of coming up and interrupting us with a question that made absolutely no sense.

00:47:46.974 –> 00:47:51.014
If he had to come up and said, excuse me, can you point me in the direction

00:47:51.014 –> 00:47:53.634
of this? Or I have a quick, you know, sorry to interrupt.

00:47:54.054 –> 00:47:56.994
There, those are those, oh, okay, can I help you?

00:47:57.194 –> 00:48:00.774
But when you come up with a statement and joke, like you said,

00:48:01.054 –> 00:48:05.634
I’m, I know I look good, you know, young, but I’m not a Girl Scout.

00:48:06.374 –> 00:48:14.414
So to ask that, it was so obvious that it was an intentional interruption of

00:48:14.414 –> 00:48:18.394
two people he didn’t know and we were having a conversation and it was that

00:48:18.394 –> 00:48:19.954
quick and it was that simple.

00:48:20.014 –> 00:48:23.854
I didn’t go, get back! I didn’t yell. I was just like, no.

00:48:24.674 –> 00:48:29.554
So I didn’t give him anywhere to go with that and I didn’t take it personal

00:48:29.554 –> 00:48:34.174
when he was the last jab of cheese lady. I was just trying to start a conversation.

00:48:34.854 –> 00:48:39.514
Yep. Yep. Got it. I would never, if he walked by me right now,

00:48:39.594 –> 00:48:42.994
I would not be able to pick him out because it was just not enough significance,

00:48:42.994 –> 00:48:47.514
but it was that whole, my friend that I was talking to as soon as he walked

00:48:47.514 –> 00:48:49.854
away kind of laughed and was like,

00:48:49.974 –> 00:48:52.254
Oh, you know, he didn’t know who he was talking to.

00:48:52.394 –> 00:48:54.554
You train on this stuff or you teach this stuff.

00:48:54.954 –> 00:48:58.854
But what I’ve found over and over again is women don’t know what to say,

00:48:59.014 –> 00:49:00.634
because they don’t want to be rude.

00:49:01.074 –> 00:49:04.254
So it’s me saying, being direct isn’t rude.

00:49:04.434 –> 00:49:08.834
And that’s the point I want to get across, as well as our earlier conversation

00:49:08.834 –> 00:49:11.214
about mentally strategizing what you would say.

00:49:11.828 –> 00:49:16.948
Yeah, going back to that whole scenario and if I’m in this situation or this

00:49:16.948 –> 00:49:23.028
happens or I’m asked this or this individual approaches me, what would I say

00:49:23.028 –> 00:49:25.388
in response to whatever they’ve got for me?

00:49:26.528 –> 00:49:29.988
Not too much after that particular story

00:49:29.988 –> 00:49:33.208
you you make the point which i completely

00:49:33.208 –> 00:49:40.008
agree because i have suffered and suffer in the spirit and of transparency i

00:49:40.008 –> 00:49:45.388
have suffered and continue to suffer when it’s someone that you’re close with

00:49:45.388 –> 00:49:50.328
someone that you know or have known it makes it,

00:49:51.108 –> 00:49:56.168
that much more difficult to enforce your boundaries.

00:49:56.528 –> 00:50:00.268
You may have boundaries, you know, like they say. I mean, I think even Randy

00:50:00.268 –> 00:50:05.548
King has said at a time or two, it’s one thing to set boundaries for yourself.

00:50:05.548 –> 00:50:12.528
It’s entirely different and arguably more difficult activity to enforce those

00:50:12.528 –> 00:50:13.728
boundaries for yourself.

00:50:15.428 –> 00:50:22.808
I think the difficulty, especially knowing that most bad things happen with

00:50:22.808 –> 00:50:28.508
people that we know or that we have trusted maybe, or at least know to some degree,

00:50:28.768 –> 00:50:34.588
and maybe even have trusted to some degree or another, it makes it excruciatingly

00:50:34.588 –> 00:50:39.888
painful to enforce those boundaries, because you feel guilty if nothing else at the end of the day.

00:50:40.908 –> 00:50:43.208
Right. What do you have to say about that? Yep.

00:50:45.088 –> 00:50:52.608
Hear, hear? Yes, I concur. wholeheartedly agree and again it’s like having that

00:50:52.608 –> 00:50:54.488
conversation at all levels,

00:50:55.192 –> 00:50:58.512
It’s not simply about enforcing boundaries with strangers.

00:50:59.212 –> 00:51:02.132
It’s not always about sticking your arm out and yelling, no,

00:51:02.292 –> 00:51:04.952
get back. That would work in some scenario.

00:51:06.572 –> 00:51:12.572
You also need to think about, well, if it’s my coworker, and I have said things

00:51:12.572 –> 00:51:16.412
before in a polite way, because we always try to do things in a nice way.

00:51:16.612 –> 00:51:18.812
First, we ask, hey, can you back up?

00:51:19.152 –> 00:51:23.792
Then we tell, you need to back up. And then sometimes we get stuck.

00:51:24.792 –> 00:51:29.892
I’ve asked I’ve told I tell again I need to use a little bit more force but

00:51:29.892 –> 00:51:32.432
they’re still not listening what are my repercussions?

00:51:33.252 –> 00:51:40.172
I was sent an Instagram video I’m not sure where it was originally posted but

00:51:40.172 –> 00:51:45.632
it was a video of a woman sharing a story and her and a friend and the driver

00:51:45.632 –> 00:51:48.112
and you might have seen it Jim.

00:51:49.232 –> 00:51:52.012
She’s retelling the story the driver was like take your

00:51:52.012 –> 00:51:54.872
clothes off or jump take your clothes off her jump and she was

00:51:54.872 –> 00:51:58.852
I’ll send it to you it was on the Clint Emerson’s

00:51:58.852 –> 00:52:04.572
podcast 100 Deadly Skills yeah and and she’s saying I didn’t believe him and

00:52:04.572 –> 00:52:08.452
I was like I’ll jump and he was like no and basically this went on a couple

00:52:08.452 –> 00:52:13.072
times she wasn’t backing down like nope I’ll jump and he was like just kidding

00:52:13.072 –> 00:52:15.232
I’ll take you back to the boat to the left.

00:52:16.292 –> 00:52:19.132
And then brush it off and

00:52:19.132 –> 00:52:21.892
oh you were just overreacting he wouldn’t have really

00:52:21.892 –> 00:52:25.592
done anything and I’m like that’s that sticky spot is

00:52:25.592 –> 00:52:28.472
we we say what we want we enforce our boundaries we

00:52:28.472 –> 00:52:31.432
verbalize what we don’t want again depending on

00:52:31.432 –> 00:52:37.032
the scenario and then it’s really easy for those manipulative individuals to

00:52:37.032 –> 00:52:43.892
back a pedal say oh it’s just kidding just a joke you gosh you’re so serious

00:52:43.892 –> 00:52:48.592
you and that’s where with the boundaries it gets so hard because then if it’s

00:52:48.592 –> 00:52:50.532
a friend of a friends. Well.

00:52:51.402 –> 00:52:54.502
That person’s always that way with people. They’re always super friendly.

00:52:54.662 –> 00:52:57.282
They always give long hugs. They’re known for their bear hugs.

00:52:57.622 –> 00:53:00.082
I don’t care. That makes me uncomfortable.

00:53:00.622 –> 00:53:03.902
Then I should be able to say, no, I don’t want to give you a hug.

00:53:04.022 –> 00:53:07.822
And it shouldn’t be a big deal instead of shaming me or making me feel bad,

00:53:07.982 –> 00:53:11.622
which then that manipulative individual feeds us.

00:53:12.002 –> 00:53:17.562
Like, I’ve got everybody in the group on my side and we’re making my target

00:53:17.562 –> 00:53:22.782
second guess their intuition and second-guess their boundary.

00:53:23.462 –> 00:53:27.842
And so that’s where it can come. You know, it’s simple, and it doesn’t always

00:53:27.842 –> 00:53:29.102
come in the form of a threat.

00:53:29.442 –> 00:53:33.422
It could be as simple as somebody says, oh, all the coworkers are going out for happy hours.

00:53:33.962 –> 00:53:37.202
Come with us, Jim. Come out for a drink. Come on, you know you want to have

00:53:37.202 –> 00:53:41.562
a little bit more Woodford. Right. Have some bourbon. Yep, be right there. You’re like, no.

00:53:42.182 –> 00:53:46.842
Yeah, right? I know. You don’t have to twist my arm too hard for those types of social settings.

00:53:47.042 –> 00:53:50.542
Yeah, yeah. But if you don’t want to, Maybe you have a prior commitment.

00:53:50.822 –> 00:53:51.582
Maybe you’re really tired.

00:53:51.902 –> 00:53:55.222
Whatever it may be. You had a long day. You say, no, thanks.

00:53:56.062 –> 00:54:00.762
Then we, as society, have to start accepting that because that’s a boundary

00:54:00.762 –> 00:54:02.782
enforcement in a different context.

00:54:02.782 –> 00:54:08.602
And we’re not going to get better at enforcing boundaries if these little micro

00:54:08.602 –> 00:54:12.482
threats that come in from our friends, from our coworkers, from our family,

00:54:12.702 –> 00:54:16.882
keep chipping away at that boundary enforcement because then pretty soon it’s,

00:54:17.342 –> 00:54:18.682
okay, fine, I’ll come up for one.

00:54:19.042 –> 00:54:23.122
Well, then the next time somebody asks who maybe is the…

00:54:24.225 –> 00:54:30.145
A workplace bully or workplace harasser person is doing that,

00:54:30.285 –> 00:54:32.965
then guess what? Now it’s a set in a precedent.

00:54:33.345 –> 00:54:37.605
And now it’s, oh, well, if I just keep pushing, you know, kind of, I hate to say this.

00:54:37.685 –> 00:54:40.285
And this was one of the first things I thought of when I read Gavin DeBecker’s

00:54:40.285 –> 00:54:42.165
book, because I’m like, this is sales 101.

00:54:42.745 –> 00:54:46.925
You got to get seven no’s before you get the yes. Right. So keep asking.

00:54:47.605 –> 00:54:51.445
And that’s a kind of mixed message of if you keep pestering,

00:54:51.645 –> 00:54:56.985
they’ll finally wear them down. And that’s what those manipulators are looking for in your circle.

00:54:57.725 –> 00:54:59.885
They’re testing your boundaries. They’re testing your boundaries.

00:55:00.265 –> 00:55:06.625
And if you kind of like them, they’re, you know, they bring cookies every Friday.

00:55:06.745 –> 00:55:08.765
They keep you engaged, don’t they?

00:55:09.165 –> 00:55:14.545
They keep you engaged. They play the game of I’m your friend and I’m nice to

00:55:14.545 –> 00:55:17.025
you, but then I make you do things you don’t want to do.

00:55:17.465 –> 00:55:20.485
Even again, it could be as simple as going out on a night you don’t want to

00:55:20.485 –> 00:55:24.265
go out. So those are still boundary issues.

00:55:24.505 –> 00:55:27.945
And that’s where I see boundaries come up over and over again.

00:55:28.365 –> 00:55:32.285
And so when we say kind of black and white, enforce boundaries,

00:55:32.585 –> 00:55:36.905
but we don’t talk about the nuances and how they might appear and how they might

00:55:36.905 –> 00:55:41.585
show up and how you need to be prepared to think about the different levels.

00:55:42.410 –> 00:55:46.790
And the different ways you’ll enforce your boundaries, we do a disservice then

00:55:46.790 –> 00:55:48.750
to anyone we’re trying to teach boundaries to.

00:55:48.750 –> 00:55:52.890
Yeah, and I think in that is kind of a lesson, too,

00:55:53.230 –> 00:56:02.750
that it is as if not more important to enforce or be willing to enforce those

00:56:02.750 –> 00:56:08.430
boundaries with your loved ones and your coworkers and your spouse and your

00:56:08.430 –> 00:56:10.470
boyfriend or girlfriend, whatever.

00:56:10.470 –> 00:56:15.350
However, because again, going back to the point that we’ve made,

00:56:15.690 –> 00:56:19.810
most bad things happen with people that you know.

00:56:20.690 –> 00:56:23.890
Enforcing a boundary with a stranger at the end of the day, eh,

00:56:24.470 –> 00:56:27.830
that’ll save you what, 20, 21% of the time, right? Right.

00:56:28.830 –> 00:56:32.870
Being able to enforce those boundaries, even at the micro level,

00:56:33.050 –> 00:56:39.970
like we’re talking about with those that we know becomes extremely important.

00:56:40.270 –> 00:56:43.710
Right. Not that bad things happen all the time. I mean, I say it all the time.

00:56:43.950 –> 00:56:48.710
Yeah, yeah, yeah. We can talk about active shooters, rape, murder,

00:56:48.990 –> 00:56:50.910
robbery, car break ins, whatever.

00:56:50.910 –> 00:56:56.650
In the overall scheme of things, with the population as large as it is,

00:56:56.810 –> 00:57:01.050
with the drugs that are pumped into some people with impunity,

00:57:01.330 –> 00:57:06.850
we’re lucky that a lot more bad things don’t happen with more regularity and frequency than they do.

00:57:07.010 –> 00:57:09.710
So it’s not like this is happening at a mass scale.

00:57:10.010 –> 00:57:15.950
But if we look at the statistics and the odds, we really should be more willing

00:57:15.950 –> 00:57:20.950
to enforce our boundaries with folks that we know than folks that we don’t know. Thank you.

00:57:21.660 –> 00:57:27.060
Right. And, you know, as cliche as the memes make it sound is if somebody doesn’t

00:57:27.060 –> 00:57:31.140
respect your boundaries, do you really want them in your life? Yeah.

00:57:32.120 –> 00:57:36.200
That’s a question to ask yourself, to every individual to ask themselves.

00:57:36.780 –> 00:57:41.300
In a work setting, you don’t always have the luxury. Maybe it’s a small company,

00:57:41.360 –> 00:57:42.420
you don’t have an HR department.

00:57:42.820 –> 00:57:45.100
Maybe it’s your boss, so who do you go and talk to?

00:57:45.520 –> 00:57:50.420
But then it comes down to, well, is this the right place for you to be employed?

00:57:50.420 –> 00:57:53.740
Or do you need to start looking for employment elsewhere but

00:57:53.740 –> 00:57:56.960
if we’re not talking about the way things really look and really happen

00:57:56.960 –> 00:58:00.460
and the micro threats that everyone faces then

00:58:00.460 –> 00:58:08.060
what ends up happening like probably the worst you know backstab story for me

00:58:08.060 –> 00:58:18.660
came from a female and came in a work setting and so to think about okay well that wasn’t a you know a.

00:58:19.490 –> 00:58:25.470
Relationship is like my husband and I, it wasn’t a stranger.

00:58:25.510 –> 00:58:29.430
It was somebody who I knew who I never thought in a million years,

00:58:29.650 –> 00:58:34.090
but the emotional damage then, and then the guilt that I carried with that,

00:58:34.110 –> 00:58:36.150
that then impacted other decisions.

00:58:36.370 –> 00:58:41.590
And that’s kind of the snowball effect that a lack of boundaries can create

00:58:41.590 –> 00:58:45.030
and will brush off little things that aren’t such a big deal.

00:58:45.170 –> 00:58:47.750
Okay, fine. I’ll go have one drink at half the hour. Yeah.

00:58:48.110 –> 00:58:51.970
Okay, fine. I’ll go do this. Yes, I’ll help you with your project at work again

00:58:51.970 –> 00:58:55.710
because you missed your deadline again. Yet again.

00:58:55.990 –> 00:58:59.490
Those little things then add up and it snowballs.

00:59:00.310 –> 00:59:04.350
And soon then we start to feel it in our heads.

00:59:05.570 –> 00:59:11.550
I’m not very good at boundary enforcement. Yeah. And so in context or in the

00:59:11.550 –> 00:59:17.070
grand theme of things, depending on the context, that can have an impact when

00:59:17.070 –> 00:59:20.310
it comes down to other situations.

00:59:20.810 –> 00:59:25.710
And again, not that drinking is the reason why somebody gets raped.

00:59:25.710 –> 00:59:29.370
But if you’ve always just given in when somebody says, come on,

00:59:29.450 –> 00:59:33.230
just come out for one, just come have one, then what happens when that cute

00:59:33.230 –> 00:59:37.950
stranger in the bar approaches you and tries to convince you,

00:59:38.070 –> 00:59:39.650
even though you’re friends and you want to leave,

00:59:40.030 –> 00:59:42.190
convinces you, hey, stay, have one more drink.

00:59:43.292 –> 00:59:46.372
Well, if you’ve always said, ah, yeah, one more drink, it doesn’t hurt.

00:59:46.732 –> 00:59:49.792
Well, in that situation, it could go very bad.

00:59:50.312 –> 00:59:55.892
So boundary enforcement with everyone is so important. Yeah.

00:59:57.252 –> 01:00:03.472
And sometimes, you know, like we said, it’s hard. Like I’ve had to enforce some

01:00:03.472 –> 01:00:08.272
boundaries even more recently, and I feel guilty at times.

01:00:08.832 –> 01:00:15.432
And not that my other friends have guilted me at any point, but they’ll say

01:00:15.432 –> 01:00:19.212
things that make me second guess what I’m doing, right?

01:00:19.352 –> 01:00:25.552
So those added pressures make it all the more difficult sometimes to enforce those boundaries.

01:00:25.772 –> 01:00:31.092
And I’m talking about people you know, right? Like I’m talking about friends or family, for example.

01:00:32.252 –> 01:00:36.532
All right, so changing gears, and this is not victim blaming at all,

01:00:36.532 –> 01:00:40.952
but I pretty much spelled out everything ahead of time to you. I have to ask.

01:00:41.092 –> 01:00:44.952
So in the book, you talk about this story where you and your friend go to a

01:00:44.952 –> 01:00:50.432
bar and of course you get the, the, the infamous hit online.

01:00:50.432 –> 01:00:52.252
Hey, can I buy you ladies a drink?

01:00:52.732 –> 01:00:57.672
And then the dude comes and sits down and pops a squat without asking,

01:00:57.672 –> 01:01:02.652
just assuming he’s got the end now that he’s bought your drinks and you’ve accepted.

01:01:03.072 –> 01:01:06.152
So I’m just going to fire all this stuff off at once.

01:01:06.272 –> 01:01:11.192
Cause as I read the story, I was like, okay, let’s just talk about,

01:01:11.392 –> 01:01:15.632
you know, avoiding situations before they happen, all of that stuff.

01:01:15.852 –> 01:01:18.152
So, you know,

01:01:19.076 –> 01:01:23.796
Why did you guys, and this is not from a judgmental perspective at all,

01:01:23.876 –> 01:01:27.536
I’m just asking questions because inquiring minds want to know.

01:01:27.876 –> 01:01:34.316
Why did you guys ever even consider going to a bar by yourselves to ladies when

01:01:34.316 –> 01:01:36.796
you know things like this happen in bars?

01:01:37.956 –> 01:01:43.496
Why did you not just outright refuse the offer from the get-go?

01:01:44.436 –> 01:01:49.676
And then if even still in that situation, especially if it made you uncomfortable

01:01:49.676 –> 01:01:52.636
in any manner, why didn’t you just get up and leave and go, hey,

01:01:52.736 –> 01:01:57.456
we’ll go to Olive Garden or whatever to sit down and finish our chit chat, right?

01:01:58.416 –> 01:02:02.336
I want some unlimited breadsticks. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I get it.

01:02:02.456 –> 01:02:08.636
Like, we should be able to, we shouldn’t live like we kind of have to live, so to speak.

01:02:08.756 –> 01:02:13.276
We shouldn’t have to do these things. But, you know, it’s a it’s a question

01:02:13.276 –> 01:02:19.376
that I ask myself, like there’s the ideology, the idealistic way that I want to live.

01:02:19.596 –> 01:02:24.236
And yes, I should be able to sleep with my windows open and my front door unlocked.

01:02:24.356 –> 01:02:29.656
But reality says, even though right or wrong, reality says, no,

01:02:29.776 –> 01:02:34.536
I got to lock my front door, front and back door at night before I go to sleep.

01:02:35.016 –> 01:02:37.476
Can you talk through maybe some of that? Sure.

01:02:38.701 –> 01:02:42.781
So I want to put a little context too. Yeah. It wasn’t, I wasn’t out.

01:02:43.061 –> 01:02:45.961
It was two of my friends that were out and telling me the story.

01:02:46.141 –> 01:02:51.401
Okay. But this is a scenario that happened probably 99% of women at some point

01:02:51.401 –> 01:02:53.981
in their life. Yeah. I can relate the story.

01:02:54.161 –> 01:02:56.541
So I’ll, I’ll still put it back in my head.

01:02:57.941 –> 01:03:01.921
You know, first question, why would you go to a bar where that could happen?

01:03:02.181 –> 01:03:08.681
Well, that’s the problem. So then am I like not supposed to go to a bar and that’s part of the

01:03:08.701 –> 01:03:11.481
of that okay we could debate all

01:03:11.481 –> 01:03:17.081
all day long well yes you should be able to but is that the smart thing to do

01:03:17.081 –> 01:03:23.061
yeah to me i don’t do good with anyone telling me i can’t do something so if

01:03:23.061 –> 01:03:28.621
you said you can never go to a bar again kelly with just one female friend guess

01:03:28.621 –> 01:03:31.301
where you’re going conversation because that’s not um i’d be like,

01:03:32.004 –> 01:03:38.604
F that. I’m going. I’m taking a couple tools with me. It’ll be fine. That’s me.

01:03:39.504 –> 01:03:43.864
So to me, that’s just not realistic. That’s telling people not to live their life now.

01:03:44.784 –> 01:03:50.264
To flip the coin and say, I know this location that they went to.

01:03:51.004 –> 01:03:56.164
The woman who was telling me the story knew. She’s like, we went to this bar.

01:03:57.184 –> 01:04:00.424
I kind of half expected it. It wasn’t really that surprising.

01:04:00.424 –> 01:04:02.764
So yeah, choose your bars wisely.

01:04:03.204 –> 01:04:08.724
Choose your location. There was a bar when I lived in Southern California that was my cheers.

01:04:09.144 –> 01:04:14.744
I could go there by myself. Hey, Kelly. Talk to the bar. Talk to the bartender. Yeah.

01:04:15.384 –> 01:04:19.504
No, it was awesome. I loved that place because I could walk there from my apartment

01:04:19.504 –> 01:04:23.544
and stumble home on the nights that that’s what happened.

01:04:23.864 –> 01:04:28.604
But I felt comfortable enough being there and it was a small bar.

01:04:29.364 –> 01:04:32.684
And so to me, it’s like, okay, well, just choose your bar then.

01:04:33.184 –> 01:04:36.184
Don’t put yourself back in a situation. No, you’re not always going to know.

01:04:36.364 –> 01:04:40.764
No, depending on who’s there, that’s going to change the dynamic of being aware.

01:04:40.904 –> 01:04:43.844
And that’s where, okay, before you walk out the door, what’s your intention?

01:04:44.224 –> 01:04:49.184
Yeah, my intention is just to go have a good conversation, share some laughter,

01:04:49.464 –> 01:04:54.844
maybe share some tears, and sit with my best friend and kind of commiserate on life.

01:04:54.844 –> 01:05:00.324
Okay well that’s my intention I have no desire to talk to anyone else or no

01:05:00.324 –> 01:05:04.504
desire to make a connection I’m not looking for you know Mr.

01:05:04.664 –> 01:05:08.404
Right whatever it may be if I know that ahead of time that’s going to inform

01:05:08.404 –> 01:05:13.064
my response and then yes if somebody offers to buy a drink I might say no like

01:05:13.064 –> 01:05:18.204
no thanks we’re just here talking or yeah sure get me a water right,

01:05:18.944 –> 01:05:24.544
completely throw them off absolutely sparkling water would be wonderful yes

01:05:24.844 –> 01:05:27.704
Thank you. Stan Pellegrino, please. On ice.

01:05:28.844 –> 01:05:32.224
And then he’s got to go find Stan Pellegrino in a bar. Right. But.

01:05:32.940 –> 01:05:35.820
It’s those kind of things if you can mentally prepare, because you should be

01:05:35.820 –> 01:05:40.740
able to go out and do those things. And I would never tell someone, no, you can’t do that.

01:05:40.940 –> 01:05:45.060
I’m going to say, okay, it’s your choice. And I’m going to, we’re going to talk

01:05:45.060 –> 01:05:47.080
through, I’m going to give you all the tools.

01:05:48.361 –> 01:05:52.241
So that you can go unprepared and have that in mind.

01:05:52.481 –> 01:05:55.601
Because if you’re going to walk into the bar, you’re going to carry yourself

01:05:55.601 –> 01:05:59.901
like you’re with intention, like you know what you’re doing,

01:06:00.061 –> 01:06:01.361
you know why you’re there,

01:06:01.881 –> 01:06:06.481
that you’re going to give off an aura that doesn’t necessarily invite other

01:06:06.481 –> 01:06:08.921
people. Not very warm and inviting, yeah.

01:06:09.201 –> 01:06:11.821
Yeah, you’re not going to be warm and friendly and look like,

01:06:11.921 –> 01:06:14.261
hey, I want you to come over and start a conversation.

01:06:15.201 –> 01:06:19.241
That kind of goes into the refuse or accept. And as I say in my book,

01:06:19.381 –> 01:06:21.181
well, what was your intent on going out for the night?

01:06:21.381 –> 01:06:26.181
Because both of those women were somewhat newly divorced. So they could have

01:06:26.181 –> 01:06:29.221
potentially been out looking for the next Mr.

01:06:29.641 –> 01:06:32.241
Right. They weren’t. Goat roping, as they say.

01:06:33.921 –> 01:06:38.021
Is that the word? Oh, my goodness. Oh, that’s great.

01:06:38.521 –> 01:06:42.681
So what is the intent? And yeah, if you feel comfortable, then leave.

01:06:42.921 –> 01:06:45.581
Yeah. Just leave. Or let the bartender know.

01:06:46.501 –> 01:06:52.821
And maybe I’m not thinking of every single bartender I’ve ever known,

01:06:52.861 –> 01:06:56.081
but most bartenders, well, they’re the sober ones,

01:06:56.361 –> 01:07:01.981
first of all, and they’re watching and they know dynamics and they can read

01:07:01.981 –> 01:07:04.241
body language because that’s part of their job.

01:07:04.241 –> 01:07:10.961
And so depend on that bartender talk to that bartender get to know them or your

01:07:10.961 –> 01:07:16.181
server what’s your plan that’s the biggest thing is having a plan because the last thing you want to do,

01:07:17.401 –> 01:07:20.101
is escalate a situation where you’re getting met out

01:07:20.101 –> 01:07:25.961
in the parking lot because you started mulling off and making fun of or ridiculing

01:07:25.961 –> 01:07:33.161
someone and now they their ego is taken over and now it’s become a social violence

01:07:33.161 –> 01:07:38.101
type situation and you’ve just escalated and that’s where being directed,

01:07:39.026 –> 01:07:43.006
Knowing what your intent was before you walked in is going to help you in the

01:07:43.006 –> 01:07:46.946
long run. And yeah, if you want to end up going to Olive Garden, you go for it.

01:07:48.286 –> 01:07:51.706
It is all you can eat salad and breadsticks, just saying.

01:07:53.026 –> 01:07:56.466
This was in no way intended for an ad for Olive Garden.

01:07:57.266 –> 01:08:02.226
Right, although we will take royalties. Right, we will take royalties if you’re

01:08:02.226 –> 01:08:05.246
so inclined. Get you our addresses.

01:08:05.886 –> 01:08:10.406
So again, you know, I warned everyone we were going to be all over the place.

01:08:10.606 –> 01:08:14.246
This is just a book you need to get and read for yourself. And you’ll see there’s

01:08:14.246 –> 01:08:16.386
lots to think about and lots to talk about.

01:08:16.726 –> 01:08:22.086
So I think Hollywood has done a disservice as it so oftentimes does.

01:08:23.186 –> 01:08:24.866
Much like mainstream media.

01:08:25.686 –> 01:08:31.006
Yeah, I know. I know I’m about to go off the reservation here and talk crazy talk.

01:08:31.486 –> 01:08:38.326
Bear with me. Okay. So in your book, you talk about this notion of persistence,

01:08:38.326 –> 01:08:42.726
specifically with men being maybe,

01:08:43.226 –> 01:08:48.906
maybe, maybe being overly persistent with women.

01:08:49.426 –> 01:08:54.446
And you talk about a story where a woman goes on a date, and I’m going to mess

01:08:54.446 –> 01:08:57.506
up the story, right? I’m just kind of giving the cliff note version here.

01:08:57.646 –> 01:09:03.546
But she goes out on a date. She quickly decides or decides over the course of

01:09:03.546 –> 01:09:05.566
the date that it’s not for her.

01:09:05.766 –> 01:09:10.586
She kindly lets the guy know, and he just continues, right?

01:09:10.986 –> 01:09:17.566
And it gets to the point where he’s sending her flowers to her place of business, which is crazy.

01:09:18.141 –> 01:09:23.141
Kind of a red flag in my mind anyway, but on and on and on and on.

01:09:23.701 –> 01:09:28.581
And then her co-workers start to shame her into thinking, you know,

01:09:28.641 –> 01:09:31.801
he’s a super sweet guy. He just wants to go out with you, blah, blah, blah, blah.

01:09:31.961 –> 01:09:35.881
Why are you being such an asshole to him? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Mm-hmm.

01:09:37.141 –> 01:09:41.741
But as being a movie buff that I am, which clearly you are not,

01:09:41.901 –> 01:09:45.001
because if you’ve never watched Rocky before, I’m disappointed in you.

01:09:45.001 –> 01:09:50.001
But there are millions upon millions, okay,

01:09:50.501 –> 01:09:58.101
hundreds upon hundreds of situations and illustrations and examples of persistence

01:09:58.101 –> 01:10:01.361
that might be not so great.

01:10:02.141 –> 01:10:07.181
So we’ll start in the reverse order because you did tell me that you and your

01:10:07.181 –> 01:10:10.841
hubby got through Walk the Line, which I think is a great movie because I’m

01:10:10.841 –> 01:10:14.461
a huge Johnny Cash fan anyway. Oh, very full.

01:10:16.121 –> 01:10:21.921
And you asked me, how in the hell does this movie have anything to do with what’s in my book?

01:10:22.361 –> 01:10:27.481
And I’m like, wow, it wasn’t obvious, which is kind of what makes it interesting

01:10:27.481 –> 01:10:36.441
to me, because I think it’s a perfect illustration of persistence beyond normal, right?

01:10:36.601 –> 01:10:40.021
Like, whatever normal is, which is kind of what I want to ask you about.

01:10:40.021 –> 01:10:50.001
Like, at what point does legitimate persistence really become a concern or even a threat, right?

01:10:50.361 –> 01:10:58.741
But to answer your question about walk the line, Johnny Cash was beating June Carter down.

01:10:59.341 –> 01:11:03.321
I mean, the last time he asked her to marry him was on the bus while she was

01:11:03.321 –> 01:11:09.421
asleep, right? Not to mention all the times leading up to that point. I mean.

01:11:10.264 –> 01:11:14.264
Could he have been perceived as the creepy guy with bad intent?

01:11:15.004 –> 01:11:19.904
Maybe. He was known for sleeping with copious amounts of women,

01:11:19.904 –> 01:11:22.864
at least I gathered from the movie, right?

01:11:23.064 –> 01:11:27.904
And he was doped out of his mind on pills at the time to boot.

01:11:27.904 –> 01:11:36.624
He really was not portrayed as a great guy, right? But he just kept pursuing

01:11:36.624 –> 01:11:41.464
and persisting after June Carter, right?

01:11:42.224 –> 01:11:48.024
So to me, that was like a great illustration of, okay, this guy should give this a rest, right?

01:11:48.164 –> 01:11:52.784
Like she’s refused him at least a half a dozen times, if not more.

01:11:52.944 –> 01:11:54.284
And that’s just what’s in the movie.

01:11:54.904 –> 01:11:59.524
And then there’s this scene, which you really need to see Rocky anyway, and shame on you for not.

01:12:00.984 –> 01:12:04.304
There’s this scene, huh? kidding.

01:12:04.584 –> 01:12:08.944
Yeah, no, I know it takes up a lot of time, but there’s this scene in Rocky

01:12:08.944 –> 01:12:14.604
where Rocky Balboa gets Adrian back to his apartment for the very first time.

01:12:14.744 –> 01:12:19.424
So I don’t remember if it was their first date or what, but it was early on in their relationship.

01:12:20.344 –> 01:12:25.164
And I can’t remember if they had a scuff or a disagreement or whatever,

01:12:25.164 –> 01:12:30.144
but there came a point where she was ready to leave his apartment, okay?

01:12:30.864 –> 01:12:34.824
And he puts his hand on the door and blocks her from leaving.

01:12:36.056 –> 01:12:41.156
Now, the story turns out to be a great love story and yada, yada, yada.

01:12:41.416 –> 01:12:46.456
But in that moment, even watching it recently, I was like, oh, shit, that’s not cool.

01:12:47.396 –> 01:12:50.216
By the standards that we’re talking about, right?

01:12:50.696 –> 01:12:55.256
So Hollywood has done this disservice to society.

01:12:55.596 –> 01:13:00.396
Again, I’m talking crazy here. But, you know, these sorts of things that we’re

01:13:00.396 –> 01:13:03.316
talking about are illustrated continuously.

01:13:03.896 –> 01:13:08.556
Like you talk, you mentioned the, I forgot how you said it, the promise,

01:13:08.816 –> 01:13:11.616
the unfulfilled or the unsolicited promise.

01:13:11.636 –> 01:13:14.556
I’m not going to hurt you. Right. I’m not going to hurt you. Right.

01:13:14.936 –> 01:13:18.976
Even in the Adam project, which I know for a fact you haven’t seen.

01:13:19.916 –> 01:13:25.036
You’re correct. With not, oh gosh, the guy that played Deadpool. Anyway.

01:13:25.596 –> 01:13:30.596
Ryan Reynolds. Yes. It’s actually a good film. But there’s a point where he,

01:13:30.596 –> 01:13:34.796
I won’t give the story away, but there’s a point where he’s interacting with

01:13:34.796 –> 01:13:39.016
a character in a scene and he says, I promise I won’t hurt you.

01:13:39.927 –> 01:13:44.887
It’s completely out of context, right? It happens to be a kid in the scene,

01:13:44.887 –> 01:13:50.387
but unsolicited promise, right? I promise I won’t hurt you.

01:13:51.147 –> 01:13:57.487
So Hollywood continues to bombard us with these things that we’re talking about

01:13:57.487 –> 01:14:03.027
really shouldn’t be happening or things that are red flags or things that we should avoid.

01:14:03.387 –> 01:14:05.787
What say you? This is such a good question.

01:14:06.787 –> 01:14:13.067
Not really a question. I rambled on for like 10 minutes and to try and keep

01:14:13.067 –> 01:14:16.487
it to think it’s a walk the line to me.

01:14:16.687 –> 01:14:23.347
And again, interesting perspective and, you know, feminists listening to this could blow me up on this.

01:14:23.527 –> 01:14:29.047
But my perspective was, okay, she did say, no, go get clean.

01:14:29.247 –> 01:14:31.027
Like there was times where she, no.

01:14:31.507 –> 01:14:36.527
Yeah. And wasn’t with him. So it wasn’t so much of a codependency.

01:14:36.527 –> 01:14:44.787
And in the end when she stuck by him and her parents I think came and he was

01:14:44.787 –> 01:14:46.027
going through his withdrawals and,

01:14:46.687 –> 01:14:51.667
you know she was there as his friend well I was like wow I’m really surprised

01:14:51.667 –> 01:15:00.267
that she did that but to me she wanted to be there and so it wasn’t that he

01:15:00.267 –> 01:15:06.247
was chasing her all the time yes he was persistent and I want to marry you but he also wasn’t.

01:15:07.024 –> 01:15:13.964
Again, portrayed in the movie, he wasn’t basically harming her or he wasn’t being creepy.

01:15:14.124 –> 01:15:18.224
She was in love with him too, it looked like, or was his friend.

01:15:18.624 –> 01:15:22.704
And that’s, again, where that mixed messaging comes in is the society was like,

01:15:22.784 –> 01:15:25.564
well, if we’re good friends and we’re supposed to stick by somebody as they

01:15:25.564 –> 01:15:31.424
go through really tough times in their life, or I’m married to someone who has

01:15:31.424 –> 01:15:32.744
an addiction problem and I’m supposed

01:15:32.744 –> 01:15:36.704
to stick by them through those tough times and not just leave them.

01:15:37.324 –> 01:15:39.104
So to me, it depends.

01:15:40.084 –> 01:15:43.224
That movie didn’t portray it where he was trying to control her,

01:15:43.384 –> 01:15:46.184
where he was trying to bait and switch.

01:15:48.104 –> 01:15:53.684
Again, that’s a person’s perspective. And we didn’t live their lives.

01:15:53.784 –> 01:15:55.964
We’re not in their heads.

01:15:56.244 –> 01:15:59.744
But to me, that was, okay, well, she was gone. She came back.

01:15:59.904 –> 01:16:04.084
It’d be a couple of years. going back to the story that you mentioned of the

01:16:04.084 –> 01:16:08.364
woman who got went on the date, not interested, started sending flowers to work.

01:16:09.424 –> 01:16:17.064
Yes, that persistence was annoying, but it wasn’t threatening. It wasn’t a threat.

01:16:17.364 –> 01:16:21.784
It was more of an annoyance. So from my, what I understood is this woman was

01:16:21.784 –> 01:16:26.904
more annoyed at her co-workers projecting onto her their wants.

01:16:27.204 –> 01:16:31.344
They wanted their husband to send them flowers at work. and oh wasn’t she so

01:16:31.344 –> 01:16:37.924
lucky that this man who she didn’t want to date and had very clearly said I do not want to date you,

01:16:38.504 –> 01:16:42.944
kept sending flowers so that’s almost where she was more annoyed to her it was

01:16:42.944 –> 01:16:47.184
like we’re not in a relationship I’m just you know you’re not escalating a threat you’re not,

01:16:47.948 –> 01:16:53.648
showing up at my door. Now, I’ve heard stories of that of a friend who was driving around.

01:16:54.228 –> 01:16:58.288
Somebody, a guy she knew gave her a call to say, hey, how are you doing?

01:16:58.628 –> 01:17:03.168
And so good, tired, long day. And he casually mentioned like, oh, should I stop by?

01:17:03.308 –> 01:17:09.168
We could have a cup of coffee or a drink on your back deck or you want me to come over and talk?

01:17:09.288 –> 01:17:13.068
And she said repeatedly, no, no, I’m just really tired. It’s a long day.

01:17:13.548 –> 01:17:16.068
I need to get home. I need to let my dog out. And when she got home,

01:17:16.288 –> 01:17:17.868
she was sitting at the end of her driveway.

01:17:19.248 –> 01:17:22.848
Not a good sign. But she, or in the cul-de-sac type thing.

01:17:22.988 –> 01:17:26.848
And when she pulled into her garage, got out of her car, then he started walking

01:17:26.848 –> 01:17:32.908
up her driveway and she was, you’re here. But in her mind,

01:17:33.590 –> 01:17:36.210
Well, I don’t want to be rude, even though she’s standing there with,

01:17:36.210 –> 01:17:41.730
you know, her purse and a bag and her food in her hand and the dogs barking

01:17:41.730 –> 01:17:44.230
in the house. And he is continually having conversations.

01:17:44.810 –> 01:17:49.830
And she told me, she’s like, in that moment, I felt rude to tell him to leave.

01:17:50.130 –> 01:17:55.030
And I was like, you told him repeatedly not to show up at your house. And he did.

01:17:55.430 –> 01:17:58.890
He was the one who crossed the line. You had every right. I said,

01:17:59.010 –> 01:18:03.110
in fact, for me, if it would have been me, I would have used sarcasm and humor

01:18:03.110 –> 01:18:05.330
to be like, what, are you stalking me now?

01:18:05.750 –> 01:18:08.530
Kind of to call it out and be like, you’re being stalkerous.

01:18:09.810 –> 01:18:13.690
Passive aggressiveness works again. Yeah. Yeah. Right. You know,

01:18:13.890 –> 01:18:17.050
and like, no, I told you I didn’t want you to come over.

01:18:18.590 –> 01:18:22.090
And so that’s that. And yes, I have not seen Rocky. When you said that,

01:18:22.170 –> 01:18:27.150
it makes me think of the opening chapter story because he goes to block her

01:18:27.150 –> 01:18:30.190
when she’s trying to leave and they were engaged and having a fight.

01:18:31.350 –> 01:18:35.790
Again, context matters. If you’re in that situation,

01:18:36.050 –> 01:18:39.670
if you’re an individual in that situation and someone is blocking you from leaving

01:18:39.670 –> 01:18:45.850
and that sends a message to your intuition or you get that instinct or the hairs

01:18:45.850 –> 01:18:47.910
in the back of your neck stand up, take notes.

01:18:48.870 –> 01:18:54.330
That’s not okay. because i i do i describe my husband as being very persistent

01:18:54.330 –> 01:18:56.430
in getting me to marry him,

01:18:57.010 –> 01:18:59.930
because i was like i don’t know i had gotten divorced he

01:18:59.930 –> 01:19:03.090
had been divorced and i was like i never want to get married again this is ridiculous

01:19:03.090 –> 01:19:08.910
you know whatever and he was but he did it in a way that wasn’t threatening

01:19:08.910 –> 01:19:14.110
it was nope i’m i this is what i want and i’m willing to be patient i’ll be

01:19:14.110 –> 01:19:18.610
your friend i’ll be wherever but i want to be in your life and so in that sense

01:19:18.610 –> 01:19:19.910
You could say, oh, yeah, persistence.

01:19:20.735 –> 01:19:24.915
But it was a good thing. So I’m assuming, because yes, I haven’t watched Rocky,

01:19:25.355 –> 01:19:30.415
I’m assuming that was the undertone of that relationship.

01:19:30.755 –> 01:19:35.535
Well, you know, I think, you know, it can be hard to discern,

01:19:35.855 –> 01:19:37.495
right? And so that was my question.

01:19:37.755 –> 01:19:42.515
Like, what’s the moment, and this may be a whole different podcast, right?

01:19:42.635 –> 01:19:45.775
But what’s the moment to refuse that persistence?

01:19:46.435 –> 01:19:53.075
And what’s the, it’s not a moment. It’s an ongoing thing because I get male-female

01:19:53.075 –> 01:19:54.435
relationships on that level.

01:19:54.635 –> 01:19:56.715
There’s a game to it, too, right?

01:19:57.135 –> 01:20:02.795
But at what point does it become negative? And I think you said it.

01:20:03.748 –> 01:20:11.168
I think it’s going on your gut, which is a great segue into the next topic that

01:20:11.168 –> 01:20:12.628
I wanted us to talk about,

01:20:12.828 –> 01:20:18.208
is the importance of listening to and embracing our intuition,

01:20:18.208 –> 01:20:21.848
what our guts telling us are for us dudes out there.

01:20:21.848 –> 01:20:25.328
You know it’s our spidey senses but right

01:20:25.328 –> 01:20:28.448
you know the importance of listening to our intuition

01:20:28.448 –> 01:20:31.288
and what it’s telling us and even if

01:20:31.288 –> 01:20:36.288
it’s wrong you won’t know what’s wrong until after the fact that’s okay but

01:20:36.288 –> 01:20:42.188
in the moment it’s important that you listen to it and not just hear it but

01:20:42.188 –> 01:20:47.648
respond to it and and i’ll take that a step further because you asked me to

01:20:47.648 –> 01:20:50.088
look at your book from a male’s perspective,

01:20:50.448 –> 01:20:55.248
the irony of intuition is that both men and women have it.

01:20:55.368 –> 01:21:00.288
We always talk about it, like we were saying earlier, we always talk about it

01:21:00.288 –> 01:21:05.488
in context of women, but the reality of it is both men and women have it,

01:21:05.568 –> 01:21:08.688
and both men and women ignore it.

01:21:09.148 –> 01:21:12.468
And that’s what we need to work to get past, right?

01:21:12.588 –> 01:21:16.508
Like, even if it hurts somebody’s feelings or offends someone,

01:21:16.508 –> 01:21:21.448
we really need to get comfortable with the notion of listening to our intuition,

01:21:21.448 –> 01:21:25.248
but also acting upon our intuition. Mm-hmm.

01:21:26.703 –> 01:21:31.623
I wholeheartedly agree. And I think the nuance between men and women is sometimes instincts.

01:21:32.083 –> 01:21:35.963
It’s described as instincts in men a lot of times and intuition in women.

01:21:36.403 –> 01:21:40.103
Feminine intuition, male instincts, gut instincts.

01:21:40.703 –> 01:21:45.783
So really, it’s the same thing. I know the definition of the dictionary varies

01:21:45.783 –> 01:21:49.023
slightly, but it’s primarily the same thing.

01:21:49.883 –> 01:21:55.743
For me, listening to you describe dismissing an intuition signal conjured up

01:21:55.743 –> 01:21:58.623
in my head a personal safety situation.

01:21:58.943 –> 01:22:04.303
If you avoid a dangerous situation, you may never get that confirmation that

01:22:04.303 –> 01:22:06.683
you did the right thing because you avoided the danger.

01:22:06.943 –> 01:22:11.943
You avoided walking down the dark alley. You avoided that person, whatever it may be.

01:22:12.763 –> 01:22:18.443
What I try and lean into with women is reminding them of how awesome their intuition is.

01:22:19.343 –> 01:22:23.203
Already and how much they listen to it and trust it. And so I get them to kind

01:22:23.203 –> 01:22:25.923
of think of it in a personal relationship way.

01:22:26.183 –> 01:22:30.283
You know when your best friend’s having a bad day. You know when your spouse,

01:22:30.303 –> 01:22:31.523
your partner’s having a bad day.

01:22:31.603 –> 01:22:36.703
You know when your kids are having a great day. You know, it’s not always a negative.

01:22:37.203 –> 01:22:39.863
Sometimes your intuition tells you really awesome things.

01:22:40.643 –> 01:22:42.863
Sometimes your intuition tells you.

01:22:43.781 –> 01:22:48.821
And it’s just going to be a great day today. I don’t know why, but it’s going to.

01:22:49.281 –> 01:22:55.101
And then, yes, you get the promotion or something happens and you win the raffle

01:22:55.101 –> 01:22:56.681
drawing, whatever it may be.

01:22:57.121 –> 01:23:01.301
And maybe if we took a little time to think back in those scenarios and say,

01:23:01.381 –> 01:23:04.381
well, how did I know that I was going to get the promotion?

01:23:04.701 –> 01:23:10.301
Well, it’s because the partner at the firm smiled at me or shook my hand or

01:23:10.301 –> 01:23:11.401
said good morning this morning.

01:23:11.501 –> 01:23:14.601
He’s never said that before. Well, that’s your intuition at work.

01:23:14.881 –> 01:23:18.281
That’s you picking up verbal cues or nonverbal cues, depending,

01:23:18.901 –> 01:23:24.761
and giving you information about your environment and woo-woo predicting the future.

01:23:25.921 –> 01:23:28.301
Okay, these are good signs. So now

01:23:28.301 –> 01:23:31.901
all it is on the flip side for personal safety is doing the same thing.

01:23:32.641 –> 01:23:36.741
Hey, you know what? I noticed that individual in the lobby watching people.

01:23:37.721 –> 01:23:42.521
And I noticed it almost like he was chasing people. He was a predator watching prey.

01:23:43.261 –> 01:23:46.921
And so that guy is up to something. I don’t know what it is.

01:23:47.061 –> 01:23:51.461
And then later, yep, that guy stole somebody’s purse and ran out the front doors.

01:23:52.189 –> 01:23:56.269
And you’re like, I knew it. I saw him standing there watching people.

01:23:57.149 –> 01:24:01.809
And so it’s the same thing. It’s our intuition. It’s reading nonverbal.

01:24:02.189 –> 01:24:07.489
And so to me, what I try to do when I’m doing classes or training the presentation

01:24:07.489 –> 01:24:13.369
is talking about these skills in that light of almost of a positive,

01:24:13.569 –> 01:24:15.709
because we need to look at our intuition as positive.

01:24:16.169 –> 01:24:20.489
And there’s a book by Marie Forleo called Everything is Figureoutable.

01:24:20.489 –> 01:24:26.669
And in it, she offers a perspective switch on fear, saying fear is our ally.

01:24:27.429 –> 01:24:33.229
Fear is our friend. It’s our caring messenger. And this is not her quote verbatim,

01:24:33.289 –> 01:24:37.329
but that really threw me for a loop when I read that, because I come from the

01:24:37.329 –> 01:24:41.929
fear of something negative happening or fear when it comes to personal safety.

01:24:42.289 –> 01:24:48.569
But I loved her perspective shift, because a fear of something happening to

01:24:48.569 –> 01:24:51.329
you and not knowing what to do causes you to take a self-defense class,

01:24:51.649 –> 01:24:55.629
causes you to start researching different self-defense tools and figuring out

01:24:55.629 –> 01:25:00.589
what’s going to work best for you and then actually practicing with it and carrying it on you.

01:25:01.169 –> 01:25:06.449
That’s a good thing. And so if we can get that perspective shift and it plays

01:25:06.449 –> 01:25:11.929
on the words of fear-based training doesn’t work because our body shuts down,

01:25:12.029 –> 01:25:14.669
our mind shuts down because it’s a dark place.

01:25:14.669 –> 01:25:19.089
But if we can incorporate play, if we can incorporate skills in a way that people

01:25:19.089 –> 01:25:25.409
are enjoying themselves and having aha moments, then then they’re going to more

01:25:25.409 –> 01:25:27.169
consciously realize these skills.

01:25:27.169 –> 01:25:32.449
So it’s the, I know my kids are getting sneaking snacks out of the cupboard

01:25:32.449 –> 01:25:37.109
because of the door hinge week that I hear, you know,

01:25:37.429 –> 01:25:41.389
moms don’t have eyes in the back of our heads, but I know when,

01:25:41.669 –> 01:25:44.809
where my kids are in the house by their walking.

01:25:45.029 –> 01:25:48.309
And so it’s these closers, like you use these skills all the time.

01:25:48.809 –> 01:25:51.689
You’ve just not thought of them from a perspective. Yeah.

01:25:52.351 –> 01:25:55.331
Personal safety and so if i can make women laugh and

01:25:55.331 –> 01:25:58.151
guys too again i can do these presentations from men

01:25:58.151 –> 01:26:01.251
too yeah i think your your testament to

01:26:01.251 –> 01:26:04.111
my book is men are going to have

01:26:04.111 –> 01:26:06.871
just as much of an

01:26:06.871 –> 01:26:09.511
enjoyable experience listening to my presentation they’re not going to

01:26:09.511 –> 01:26:14.071
be like oh this is just such a this is a chick presentation you know this is

01:26:14.071 –> 01:26:18.271
for everybody yeah it’s fun you’re gonna laugh a little bit you’re gonna be

01:26:18.271 –> 01:26:22.511
like oh my gosh yeah that’s true i never thought of that this is very interesting

01:26:22.511 –> 01:26:28.491
very fascinating and i never thought of it and i love presenting to.

01:26:29.691 –> 01:26:34.611
Other experts other professionals in that threat assessment space self-defense space,

01:26:35.271 –> 01:26:40.731
executive protection whatever it is because to me they’re probably the most

01:26:40.731 –> 01:26:44.731
frustrated because they know it so well yeah like you and i love this stuff

01:26:44.731 –> 01:26:46.771
we read stuff on it we listen to stuff on,

01:26:47.371 –> 01:26:50.791
situational awareness has become part of our subconscious and

01:26:50.791 –> 01:27:00.191
it’s really hard to pull out our subconscious and teach these skills at a conscious

01:27:00.191 –> 01:27:07.971
level to somebody who has no history or background so for me to be able to give little hacks.

01:27:08.817 –> 01:27:12.617
Like, hey, well, this is this skill. You know, the OODA loop is driving a car,

01:27:12.957 –> 01:27:14.917
you know, and explain it that way.

01:27:14.997 –> 01:27:18.677
Then everybody can relate to it and get a different perspective.

01:27:18.977 –> 01:27:25.157
And then that next step in my mind and where I foresee my training is going

01:27:25.157 –> 01:27:29.617
in the future is, okay, so now we’ve established the base of situational awareness

01:27:29.617 –> 01:27:33.257
skill, the foundational skill that you’ve always had.

01:27:33.257 –> 01:27:40.197
And now you can consciously articulate how you knew that that person was watching

01:27:40.197 –> 01:27:45.617
people and that their body language is obviously uncomfortable and was being

01:27:45.617 –> 01:27:48.837
too interested in something like that woman’s purse.

01:27:49.017 –> 01:27:52.797
She was paying too much attention to notice when she wasn’t going to be looking

01:27:52.797 –> 01:27:56.037
for the opportune time to steal her purse, whatever it may be.

01:27:56.177 –> 01:27:59.997
And then I can go, okay, now it’s scenario-based training.

01:28:00.217 –> 01:28:02.917
Now we’re going to go into that predator mindset a little bit.

01:28:03.257 –> 01:28:07.157
But people, in my opinion, that I typically work with aren’t there yet.

01:28:07.417 –> 01:28:12.097
But to get them to try and go to a predator mindset, to see that criminal aspect

01:28:12.097 –> 01:28:17.757
and to look at the world through that lens in order to see those behaviors quicker.

01:28:19.321 –> 01:28:24.261
It’d be like going Doogie Howser from Yeah, it’d be so foreign and it wouldn’t

01:28:24.261 –> 01:28:28.061
make sense And then they’d get frustrated because they couldn’t get it So this is,

01:28:28.241 –> 01:28:31.561
hey, we’re starting out Here’s situational awareness 101 And then we’re going

01:28:31.561 –> 01:28:37.301
to graduate through Criminal mindset 401 class And so that gets me excited That

01:28:37.301 –> 01:28:42.161
gets me going every day Because I know there’s so much more That I can do,

01:28:42.681 –> 01:28:44.521
That is not going to be me teaching,

01:28:45.261 –> 01:28:48.741
Situational awareness 101 For the rest of my life Yeah, absolutely.

01:28:49.301 –> 01:28:54.121
All right. So we’ve gotten to the point where I get to have my jollies.

01:28:54.481 –> 01:28:59.741
I get to put you on the spot. You know, in context, I can say,

01:28:59.821 –> 01:29:01.321
but that sounds really bad.

01:29:04.181 –> 01:29:08.241
Innuendo. No, not meant that way at all.

01:29:08.421 –> 01:29:15.921
I have two questions that are, while not innuendo driven, are completely meant

01:29:15.921 –> 01:29:18.781
to put you on the spot and not in a. Okay.

01:29:19.361 –> 01:29:22.301
Put me in the hot seat. Yeah. Put you in the hot seat.

01:29:22.501 –> 01:29:27.021
Not in a negative way by any means, because we’re talking about good stuff.

01:29:27.021 –> 01:29:28.261
But I have two questions.

01:29:28.801 –> 01:29:33.621
I can give them to you both at the same time, or I can give them to you one

01:29:33.621 –> 01:29:35.521
at a time. I’ll let you choose.

01:29:36.221 –> 01:29:40.781
And I don’t know how I’m going to ask these. Hopefully, they’ll make sense as

01:29:40.781 –> 01:29:43.481
I’m stumbling through how to ask them.

01:29:44.241 –> 01:29:47.961
But I think they’re relevant in today’s times for sure.

01:29:47.961 –> 01:29:55.001
Okay well let’s let’s uh give me the first question okay so i i again i’m going

01:29:55.001 –> 01:30:00.521
to struggle on how to perfectly ask this question but hopefully you’ll pick up what i’m putting down,

01:30:01.761 –> 01:30:09.221
okay so and this is just what i wrote for myself so i’ll ask it as i wrote it with.

01:30:11.061 –> 01:30:17.601
With men getting softer and women getting stronger what does this mean do you think Thank you.

01:30:18.207 –> 01:30:23.207
How will this change the game? Maybe it’s a pessimism in me coming through a

01:30:23.207 –> 01:30:25.747
little bit, but that actually worries me.

01:30:26.047 –> 01:30:32.267
Because when I think of men getting softer, I think of the negative aspects of that.

01:30:33.127 –> 01:30:39.767
Men not being strong mentally, being resilient, being physically fit,

01:30:40.167 –> 01:30:45.567
being able to be a partner to their.

01:30:47.947 –> 01:30:51.827
Female, their wife, their girlfriend. Because to me,

01:30:52.973 –> 01:30:59.333
What I’m seeing is this huge pendulum switch, pendulum wing, excuse me.

01:30:59.733 –> 01:31:08.013
And that worries me because I married my alpha strong husband because he was my equal. Yeah.

01:31:08.373 –> 01:31:15.153
And so while that can be a challenge, more days than not, because we’re both stubborn.

01:31:15.373 –> 01:31:17.533
We’re both very driven. Headstrong.

01:31:18.493 –> 01:31:24.373
Yeah, we’re very headstrong. That is a challenge some days because it can take a bit.

01:31:24.473 –> 01:31:28.653
It’s a give and take to say, okay, I realize I’m only thinking from my perspective.

01:31:28.653 –> 01:31:31.973
I need to take a step back and see it from your perspective as well.

01:31:32.353 –> 01:31:33.973
And that’s really hard sometimes.

01:31:35.133 –> 01:31:38.493
The person you’ve been in a relationship with for almost 14 years.

01:31:38.493 –> 01:31:45.753
Yeah so i don’t see like strong women i’m like yeah be strong but don’t lose your femininity,

01:31:46.333 –> 01:31:49.453
that’s what makes you unique and makes you a woman it’s interesting

01:31:49.453 –> 01:31:55.573
so why like you can be strong i can totally be an alpha female that doesn’t

01:31:55.573 –> 01:32:01.393
mean i’m going all gi jane or that doesn’t mean that you know i have to like

01:32:01.393 –> 01:32:07.193
start chewing tobacco or driving a semi-truck but if i wanted too sweet.

01:32:07.493 –> 01:32:12.473
You know, that’s cool. But I can still also be feminine and be strong.

01:32:12.473 –> 01:32:16.693
And I need my husband to be masculine and to be strong.

01:32:16.953 –> 01:32:19.553
Yeah. So that’s how I would answer that question.

01:32:20.073 –> 01:32:24.393
And no, and I appreciate that viewpoint. We could talk for hours. No, I yeah.

01:32:24.393 –> 01:32:28.933
And I know it’s a loaded question. And I ask it because personally,

01:32:28.933 –> 01:32:36.373
I see youth men, and I’m not saying it’s 100%. I’m not saying it’s across the board.

01:32:36.513 –> 01:32:39.853
I’m I’m not saying it applies to everyone. That’s not what I’m saying.

01:32:40.213 –> 01:32:42.573
I’m seeing- Okay, we gotta get all these disclaimers. Right,

01:32:42.693 –> 01:32:46.513
I gotta get all these disclaimers out so I don’t get chewed out later at some point.

01:32:46.713 –> 01:32:52.093
But I do see in today’s youth, generally speaking.

01:32:53.072 –> 01:32:56.632
That masculinity is going away, by and large, right?

01:32:57.252 –> 01:33:02.052
And at the same time, I see a movement, at least in some circles,

01:33:02.252 –> 01:33:08.372
which I think you’re a part of, and rightfully so, of making women stronger, right?

01:33:09.752 –> 01:33:16.072
And there is a duel there, right? And so what does that mean in the long run?

01:33:16.232 –> 01:33:21.292
And that’s why I asked that. My second question is related, and I think you

01:33:21.292 –> 01:33:23.892
kind of sort of maybe have touched upon it.

01:33:24.152 –> 01:33:30.912
And I, again, I don’t know how exactly I should ask this, but I will just kind

01:33:30.912 –> 01:33:33.492
of give it to you as I wrote it originally.

01:33:33.492 –> 01:33:40.952
Certainly, women that still choose traditional roles, whether that means,

01:33:40.952 –> 01:33:45.732
you know, stay at home moms, however you want to label it. Like,

01:33:45.832 –> 01:33:47.252
I don’t want to put labels on that.

01:33:47.432 –> 01:33:54.192
But for women that still choose traditional roles, can they still be capable

01:33:54.192 –> 01:33:59.572
in their own right in the context of what we’re talking about on this podcast

01:33:59.572 –> 01:34:02.152
and what you’re trying to do for women at large?

01:34:02.872 –> 01:34:07.772
Okay, just make sure I understand. So basically, the traditional roles,

01:34:07.912 –> 01:34:11.272
can they still be strong women? Or can they still? Yeah.

01:34:12.211 –> 01:34:14.931
Learn to defend themselves, I guess.

01:34:15.631 –> 01:34:19.691
Yeah, that was probably a shitty way for me to ask the question.

01:34:19.931 –> 01:34:23.811
But yeah, for those women that are comfortable and, dare I say,

01:34:24.051 –> 01:34:29.431
want to maintain traditional roles as a woman that we know.

01:34:30.471 –> 01:34:35.951
Can they still be this dynamo that you want them to be?

01:34:36.291 –> 01:34:39.111
Are the two possible?

01:34:40.311 –> 01:34:43.651
Okay. Again, this is off the cuff.

01:34:43.871 –> 01:34:47.991
You’re answering me. But my first thought was, honestly, I think they’re stronger

01:34:47.991 –> 01:34:53.031
than most of us because they are already fighting what society is telling them.

01:34:53.371 –> 01:34:56.691
Like, oh, you should have a career.

01:34:56.971 –> 01:35:02.851
You should do this. Like, nah, shouldas could go away. is I think they are very

01:35:02.851 –> 01:35:06.291
strong because they’re standing in their beliefs and that’s where strength is.

01:35:06.411 –> 01:35:12.531
It’s owning who you are, knowing what you want and going for it no matter what

01:35:12.531 –> 01:35:17.151
society says, no matter how society judges your lifestyles because society doesn’t

01:35:17.151 –> 01:35:19.631
have to live your life. You do and you only get one of them.

01:35:19.791 –> 01:35:25.251
So you live your life the way you want to and to me.

01:35:26.911 –> 01:35:30.411
Like I thought of the pioneering

01:35:30.411 –> 01:35:33.291
women like we just watched Yellowstone we haven’t

01:35:33.291 –> 01:35:36.111
watched yeah yeah three yet but I think

01:35:36.111 –> 01:35:41.611
about okay that’s a traditional very traditional role yeah and those women were

01:35:41.611 –> 01:35:47.931
hardy hardcore right you know they they knew how to do you did not mess with

01:35:47.931 –> 01:35:53.291
them but they were homeschooling they were taking care of the homestead so to

01:35:53.291 –> 01:35:55.131
me I think that’s a very…

01:35:55.855 –> 01:36:00.935
Interesting question in the sense of, to me, I’m like, any woman who can stand

01:36:00.935 –> 01:36:08.735
in who she wants to be and has strength in that and goes confidently forward is a sharp woman.

01:36:08.935 –> 01:36:14.995
I mean, in the motto of, or the symbolism of an arrow through a diamond is courage

01:36:14.995 –> 01:36:16.215
or confidence moving forward.

01:36:17.015 –> 01:36:21.435
And my whole mission is to help women get to the place where they can live life

01:36:21.435 –> 01:36:28.415
on their own terms. and that’s vague for a reason because I am me and I’m still

01:36:28.415 –> 01:36:31.855
trying to figure out who I want to be when I grow up so to speak.

01:36:33.895 –> 01:36:38.235
I’m still evolving so who the hell would I be to tell someone else how they

01:36:38.235 –> 01:36:44.275
should live their life how they should defend themselves the prescriptive model

01:36:44.275 –> 01:36:51.615
is so against what I believe in if someone comes to me and says well should I carry,

01:36:52.355 –> 01:36:57.515
a mace or a savvy tool or a knife or a firearm and they’re going back and forth,

01:36:57.755 –> 01:37:00.615
my first question to them is, what do you want?

01:37:01.337 –> 01:37:03.937
What do you want to care? What do you feel? What is your lifestyle?

01:37:04.417 –> 01:37:06.817
What’s going to work best for you? Yeah.

01:37:07.537 –> 01:37:13.617
So I would answer that question of, heck yeah. You do you. You do you, boo.

01:37:14.797 –> 01:37:23.317
You do you, boo. And I will be 100% cheering you on and supporting you and celebrating

01:37:23.317 –> 01:37:26.377
your successes as you discover who you are.

01:37:26.377 –> 01:37:31.277
Because getting back to that situational awareness, carrying yourself with confidence,

01:37:31.637 –> 01:37:35.157
if you have confidence in yourself and who you are, you’re going to carry yourself differently.

01:37:35.157 –> 01:37:44.417
Whether that’s in cowboy boots and wrangler jeans and a button down or that, you know,

01:37:45.277 –> 01:37:54.457
stiletto heels and suits or whatever it may be, or a gypsy, flowy dress and

01:37:54.457 –> 01:37:56.337
ribbons in your hair. Great.

01:37:56.717 –> 01:37:59.737
Because you’re going to carry yourself differently if you have confidence in

01:37:59.737 –> 01:38:01.517
who you are. Yeah, absolutely.

01:38:02.417 –> 01:38:07.757
Absolutely. Kelly, this has been great. I appreciate you coming on and talking

01:38:07.757 –> 01:38:10.377
and you didn’t pay me to do this.

01:38:10.697 –> 01:38:13.597
We’re just talking about your book. I thought it was awesome.

01:38:14.117 –> 01:38:17.497
I would read it again and again. I would recommend it to anyone,

01:38:17.657 –> 01:38:20.117
both men and women, sharp women.

01:38:20.357 –> 01:38:24.637
Check it out on Amazon. Again, I think it’s available on Kindle,

01:38:25.117 –> 01:38:28.017
soft cover, hard cover, reasonable.

01:38:28.577 –> 01:38:31.417
It’s well worth it. Check it out. I will

01:38:31.417 –> 01:38:34.497
also say that we should go back and talk about our

01:38:34.497 –> 01:38:37.657
podcast 25 talking about situational awareness

01:38:37.657 –> 01:38:43.797
the first podcast you and I did together and and the one that I have no idea

01:38:43.797 –> 01:38:49.517
how it worked out this way but my podcast 25 is what if thinking through scenarios

01:38:49.517 –> 01:38:54.817
so I’d recommend both of those to go back and listen to for sure but I appreciate

01:38:54.817 –> 01:38:56.597
you coming on and talking to us.

01:38:57.475 –> 01:39:01.075
Yes. Thank you for having me. As always, I enjoyed our conversation.

01:39:01.475 –> 01:39:06.835
I want to do a deep dive. And as a teaser, dear listeners, I’ve actually been

01:39:06.835 –> 01:39:11.355
having some conversations about the term toxic masculinity.

01:39:11.715 –> 01:39:14.675
What is that? Is it a thing? Is it fake or not?

01:39:14.835 –> 01:39:18.695
And it’s, it’s rumbling around in my head. I tell you what, it’s,

01:39:18.735 –> 01:39:20.955
I can, I can answer that. I could.

01:39:22.235 –> 01:39:27.395
Well, I’m sure you could. But that’s where it’s so fascinating to me right now.

01:39:27.555 –> 01:39:31.775
And I’m really processing a lot of different things and trying to take in different

01:39:31.775 –> 01:39:39.275
perspectives because it’s fascinating to me to your point of I’m trying to raise masculine men.

01:39:39.455 –> 01:39:47.535
I’m trying to raise good, strong boys because I’m thinking about little girls.

01:39:47.675 –> 01:39:49.455
I don’t have daughters. I only have boys.

01:39:50.095 –> 01:39:55.855
Is I want future generations of girls to have good partners that will take care

01:39:55.855 –> 01:39:57.095
of them and be their partner.

01:39:57.535 –> 01:40:03.815
And so it’s interesting coming as a mom of boys. What is toxic masculinity?

01:40:04.135 –> 01:40:07.935
And is this a thing? And what are they really saying? What does that really mean?

01:40:08.195 –> 01:40:12.855
So that’ll have to be a podcast in the future, Jim. Yeah. Yeah,

01:40:12.975 –> 01:40:14.395
I’ll do that one in a heartbeat.

01:40:15.835 –> 01:40:21.795
That one’s uh got fun written all over it for sure that one’s got lots more

01:40:21.795 –> 01:40:27.335
bourbon written uh yeah for sure definitely definitely yeah no i was just gonna

01:40:27.335 –> 01:40:31.095
say thanks so much again for having me on it’s been fun yeah thanks so much.