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Hello and welcome to another episode of the

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self-initiative project podcast i’m your host jim o’brien hello and welcome

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back today i’ve got my very special guest rob pinkus back with us for a second

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time and um you were right i was listening to your live event earlier this morning

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and it has already been over a year and a half since we last did.

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That was my podcast 16, and I think I just put out 35.

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So time flies when you’re having fun. But I know that when I launched the last

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podcast, something to the effect of guns are not the answer to your personal safety.

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I think that that kind of piqued your interest, and there’s some points in that

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that we want to get through that we may or may not agree with.

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And so I wanted to get together and chat through it today. How are you?

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I’m great, Jim. I appreciate the opportunity. You know, I do pay attention to

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what you put out and your thoughts on this.

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I did enjoy our conversation. And it seems like, I don’t know,

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2020 to me seemed like three years long.

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So I guess that’s even longer than a year and a half. But I’ll tell you, the reason,

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certainly the title, and then in listening to the show, And it,

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the reason it did pique my interest and I wanted to have a conversation is it,

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you said a lot of things that I’ve said for years, right?

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About role of the firearm and sort of the fact that just owning the gun isn’t

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enough and all that stuff.

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And yet I want to make sure that what I am thinking is what you’re thinking for,

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because so much of what you say I think is aligned with a lot of my core principles

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and values when it comes to different things.

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And if not, then what a cool opportunity to take somebody that I respect and

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I consider a friend and who’s very articulate and I think very thoughtful and

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sincere in their principles.

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What a great opportunity to explore a difference of opinion if that’s what we

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have. Yeah, absolutely.

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And so just to kind of recap the spirit of where I was going with that.

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First of all, the title of it was meant to kind of be, you know.

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Kind of a shocker, you know, but the genesis and I think I made mention of this in the podcast.

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But the genesis of it, what inspired me to do the topic, to cover the topic

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in the first place is I keep seeing.

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And I think I see it mostly, you know, following folks in the 2A community or related.

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It may have been self-defense, but I know I’ve seen it a couple of places from

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a couple of different sources.

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And what sparked this whole thing is something that kind of irks me.

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And that’s this notion that, you know, gun control takes away a woman’s right to self-defense.

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And I get it. I get the spirit of that. But it couldn’t be more wrong, in my opinion.

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That’s another one of those emotionally charged statements to get people fired up.

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So I understand it in principle, but my whole thing is, and I said this,

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is that if there was tons of gun control or if guns went away altogether or

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never existed in the first place, you still have the right to self-defense.

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And you still have a ton of tools, both hardware and software,

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to employ in order to defend yourself.

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And so that was kind of the whole premise of me doing the last podcast.

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But yeah, I mean, I had a few points that I was trying to make.

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That being the first one, because that’s what kind of sparked it all.

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The other one is, is that when you get a gun, it doesn’t make you automatically safer.

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It doesn’t make you automatically a badass for carrying a gun if you’ve elected

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to carry one for self-defense.

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And then, you know, if you have a gun, that doesn’t mean you can suddenly do

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away with all your other personal safety responsibilities.

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And piggybacking on that, that doesn’t mean now that you go seeking out fights

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or you don’t have to worry about avoiding the dark alleys or doing all the things

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you should be doing anyway,

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because you’re carrying. You actually have a greater responsibility.

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So those are my main takeaways. That and the fact that we shouldn’t be listening

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to Hollywood and the media about guns and how they get used, right?

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Does that all make sense? Absolutely. And I think that all of those,

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you know, absolutely resonate with the philosophy that we teach at IC Training

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Company, the stuff that we share through Personal Defense Network. Yeah.

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I think this idea, you know, there is a universe, pretty universal.

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Nothing’s really absolute, right? But it’s a pretty universally accepted right to self-preservation.

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And in international law, culturally around the globe, it’s pretty universal

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that, yeah, you as a as a human being have the right to defend yourself from

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harm, from unreasonable attack,

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you know, whatever, physical, mental, all of that.

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We that is that is almost unquestioned in around the globe.

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Now, guns, obviously, are a potential means to exercise that right.

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And the gun isn’t the right.

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And in the United States, we have a constitutionally explicit protected right

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to that means, to keep and bear arms.

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And the government is told, you may not restrict this.

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You may not infringe upon this right, which, again, based on the writing and

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the presentation is self-evident and exists prior to the writing of the Constitution.

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And merely the government is being told.

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They can’t interfere with it. And interestingly, and obviously the source of

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a great controversy is the fact that the framers of the Constitution,

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and perhaps one of their obvious missteps, I think,

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they felt compelled to tell the government why the government shouldn’t infringe

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on this right in a way that appealed to the government.

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Right so what did they say the right of

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the people to protect themselves potentially

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even from the government right and potentially from other

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people outside remember we had no standing arm there’s no plan for a

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standing army then the fact that we might need to do the government’s work essentially

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as individuals we may need to protect ourselves and our country from internal

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or external foe yeah so therefore you should not get in get in the way of people’s

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right to keep and bear arms.

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And it’s in your interest, government, to not get in the way.

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And that clause has really screwed things up in terms of the individual right.

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Now, luckily, and I think rightfully, the Supreme Court in all of the recent

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rulings has been very clear that this is an individually protected right.

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It’s not a collective right.

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It’s not the National Guard is the militia. It’s not the state of the army made it obsolete.

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None of that. And that’s good. But the fact that the question even had to be

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clarified is because of the wording of the Second Amendment.

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And I have always been very clear, I believe, regardless of what the way that

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amendment is written, obviously, I support it.

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I support the idea that the government shouldn’t get in the way of our means

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to be able to protect ourselves in the situations where a gun is the best tool for that job.

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I also have been really clear with people that I see that nearly as an extension

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of the acknowledgement of the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness

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that’s self-evident and our right to protect ourselves.

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So there really is a huge, huge difference between the right to protect yourself,

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the obligation to protect yourself, the responsibility we have to be prepared

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to defend ourselves and the object of the gun.

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Couldn’t agree more. And, and that was, that was, I guess that would be a good

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summary overview of what I was trying to get at with that point.

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Because again, I’ve seen a few things pop up and every time it agitates me,

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because again, I understand the spirit in which it was said,

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but it’s a little bit misleading.

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It’s meant to get that visceral reaction, but I don’t need a gun to defend myself. You know what I mean?

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Right. And again, I can come up with an example where, well,

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what would you do if you didn’t have a gun?

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I get it. And sometimes when I’m talking to that, that anti-gun parent,

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I’ll say, well, you know, let’s just imagine for a second, you know,

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I don’t think I could ever take a life with a gun.

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Okay well you know you’re in your duct

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tape to the chair and the gun’s in your hand and

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the person’s gonna kill your child would you pull the

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trigger you have no other option you know it’s ridiculous

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it’s hyperbolic but as a thought experiment it

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definitely gets people to the point of okay i can see where yeah under certain

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circumstances that are convoluted unlikely i would gun but but the idea that

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they would protect their kids that is period self-evident the idea even the

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people i think that would say

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they don’t know if they could hurt somebody else to protect themselves.

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Which I don’t know that if that gets tested, I don’t know that ever really stands up.

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They don’t say that about their kids or their mom or their wife or their dad, right?

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People are pretty ready to protect their loved ones.

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So when we talk about it, and I think that’s why the emotion of most of the

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donors and most of the likers and most of the sharers and reposters in the gun community are men.

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So when you say, Hey, this gun control could victimize women and make it impossible

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for them to defend themselves, you trigger the emotion and you get the donation,

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you get the like, you get to share.

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And that’s, that’s fear mongering. And I also agree with you that it’s not the

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way we should be doing this. Yeah.

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I, yeah. And I think that’s the part that gets me both. It’s like,

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that’s not a good sales technique.

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Yeah. You’ve got the emotional charge piece, but you’re going about it all wrong.

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And, you know, it’s, it’s funny that you mentioned mindset. Cause we talked

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about that in that podcast too. And we touched upon that very thing.

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Like before you think a gun is the answer to your self-defense problems,

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you need to figure out whether or not you can do it or not.

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Like if it came down to it and you had to employ that tool, are you capable?

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Can you do it? And if you haven’t answered that for yourself yet.

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Or you say no, then why do you have a gun in the first place?

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So it’s not the go-to tool,

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And it’s not necessarily a tool for everyone in the audience, you know.

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100%. And the real danger then, and I think this was really a big part of your

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point, whereas I spent a lot of time sort of trying to police our community

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and get our community better, because,

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you know, I will admit that when we say it’s not the right way to do the fundraising,

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it doesn’t mean it’s not effective, right?

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And it gets the clicks going, but it then gets used against us,

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I think, rightfully, because it’s, oh, look, they’re fear-mongering, and this is not true.

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And intellectually, that argument can be undermined pretty quickly,

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because what’s the worst case scenario?

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To me, the worst case scenario is you just made a woman who doesn’t own a gun

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or can’t own a gun. Maybe it’s a woman in France.

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Maybe it’s a woman who committed a felony of tax evasion.

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Maybe it’s a woman who lives in Manhattan. And you just made her think she can’t defend herself.

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If she takes you seriously, she now just got disempowered because of your fear

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mongering, because you weren’t genuine enough to just say, sure,

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there’s other means to self-defense work in a lot of different situations.

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But ultimately, humans should have the right to have the gun for those rare

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and worst case scenarios as well.

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And if you just say it that way, maybe you’ll cause that same woman to say.

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Well, gee, I wonder what the I don’t want a gun, but maybe I should look into

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these other means. of defending myself.

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I’ve got options to explore. And that’s, that’s an important takeaway,

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because if you say you said, you said it very well, if you take away the gun,

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I’ve been disempowered.

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Now I’ve been, you know, I’ve been fixed, so to speak. Right.

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So I don’t have any options if I don’t have that tool as an option for my go-to.

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And so I think, I think understanding that it’s not the only option.

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And then when it is the option, it’s not the go-to in all situations.

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Dare I say, you know, you’ve got the LEO background, you probably know better

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than me, but it’s probably not the go-to option in most cases.

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Would you agree with that?

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Oh, absolutely. When I’m teaching defensive shooting skill development,

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and when I do instructor development for people that are going to be teaching

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shooting skills, you know, I’ll draw like a big rectangle on the board or square

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or something. You know, I’m not super great.

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If anybody’s ever seen my whiteboards, it’s not 90 degree angles. So I draw a shape, right?

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And I’ll say, yeah, this is your, this is conflict in your life, right?

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Like this is, this is conflict that, that creates aftermath.

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That’s how I define conflict. You, you were in a, you were in a conflict.

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If there’s an aftermath, if you think about it afterwards, if it,

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if you’re in the hospital afterwards, if you’re in court afterwards,

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you know, if there’s math, you were in a conflict.

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That’s how we define it. Right? So somebody looks at you funny and you move

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on, you weren’t in a conflict.

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Somebody looks at you funny and you have a nightmare about it.

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That was a conflict, right?

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So what happens is.

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When we look at conflict in our

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lives, that rectangle that I just drew is potentially happening every day.

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If you cross the street because there’s someone that intimidates you,

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scares you, or you just don’t want to be messed with by down the streets,

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you go out of your way to go around that corner, that was conflict.

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You recognized potential conflict.

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You avoided it or de-escalated the situation by changing your route.

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You took an action and you moved on with the rest of your life.

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Well, that goes in that rectangle, right? So then once I’ve established that,

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I’ll say the whole whiteboard, which is 10, 50 times the size of this rectangle

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I’ve drawn, the whole whiteboard is your life.

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So your life isn’t mostly conflict. Conflict is a small part of your life,

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but it does exist. We need to acknowledge it.

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Somewhere in a little piece in the rectangles, okay, this piece is physical conflict.

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This is the kind of stuff that could have been physical or was physical.

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The fist fight you had in third grade, the person who hugged you awkwardly at

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the Christmas party that you had to kind of push them away.

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And you’re going to avoid being isolated with them to the rest of your work

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experience with that in that company.

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You know, these are physical things. And then I’ll draw a little,

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little dot and I’ll say, these are the potentially lethal, literally a dot in

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the corner of the second rectangle.

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This dot I just made with the dry erase marker, that’s potentially lethal conflict

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that might involve a gun.

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And I can’t even articulate like there isn’t a molecule of the ink that’s on

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the dry erase board in that dot.

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That is the times you actually have to pull the trigger because we know a lot

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of defensive gun uses are merely letting people know that you will use the gun

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and that deescalates things rather quickly in most cases.

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So, so this idea that, that you’re taking a gun glass, you’re going to spend

00:15:17.294 –> 00:15:20.754
the money, spend the time, do all this for something that’s incredibly unlikely

00:15:20.754 –> 00:15:24.834
and incredibly rare in the human experience is a good thing.

00:15:25.094 –> 00:15:28.734
One of the reasons it’s incredibly rare is because of.

00:15:29.298 –> 00:15:35.178
Situational awareness, conflict avoidance, de-escalation, unarmed skills, all these things.

00:15:35.258 –> 00:15:38.198
And we’re not alone and I’m not alone in this theory.

00:15:38.498 –> 00:15:42.378
People have said for years, Masada, Claude Werner,

00:15:42.638 –> 00:15:45.798
so many people over the years have said, if you’re carrying a gun,

00:15:45.998 –> 00:15:51.278
you should also carry pepper spray or have unarmed fighting skills or carry

00:15:51.278 –> 00:15:55.958
a taser, carry some alternative force so that you don’t have to jump to the gun.

00:15:55.958 –> 00:15:59.398
And Clint Smith has said for decades, if all you have is a gun,

00:15:59.758 –> 00:16:03.198
you know, then that’s all you’re going to use. If all you have is a hammer,

00:16:03.438 –> 00:16:04.858
everything looks like a nail.

00:16:05.078 –> 00:16:10.698
And he and we have to go beyond that in our preparation to defend ourselves mindset wise.

00:16:11.118 –> 00:16:15.678
Otherwise, absolutely. You go right to the gun and that’s a recipe for disaster

00:16:15.678 –> 00:16:18.518
in the vast majority of human conflict. Yeah.

00:16:18.998 –> 00:16:24.838
Yeah. And I think the last number and, you know, numbers in my mind are always

00:16:24.838 –> 00:16:30.158
questioned because they’re, you know, they’re put out to make a point or manipulate the facts.

00:16:30.318 –> 00:16:35.138
But, you know, what do they say about statistics? Statistics can say anything you want them to say.

00:16:35.438 –> 00:16:41.418
But I think the last number relative to bad things that really get so bad that

00:16:41.418 –> 00:16:45.678
you’re going to be going at it, you know, fisticuffs or having to go even to

00:16:45.678 –> 00:16:48.118
that next level of force is like,

00:16:48.278 –> 00:16:52.718
there’s a 0.04% chance in your life that that’ll ever happen.

00:16:53.338 –> 00:16:57.138
And so, you know, you bring up another good point. Why do we in the gun community

00:16:57.138 –> 00:17:01.378
focus so much or put so much energy into the importance of training,

00:17:01.378 –> 00:17:04.958
which was a point that I was trying to make in my last podcast, too, is that,

00:17:05.098 –> 00:17:08.738
you know, you don’t just buy a gun and automatically get safer, right?

00:17:08.898 –> 00:17:11.138
Be a badass and make yourself safer.

00:17:11.518 –> 00:17:16.118
You might make yourself feel safer by having that gun on your nightstand or

00:17:16.118 –> 00:17:19.398
carrying that gun on your hip if you’ve got the license to do so.

00:17:19.758 –> 00:17:23.038
But it does not make you automatically safer. And, you know,

00:17:23.138 –> 00:17:24.758
if you purchase a firearm,

00:17:25.138 –> 00:17:30.718
it’s incumbent on you to get that associated training, both basic skills and

00:17:30.718 –> 00:17:35.358
safety, obviously, going all the way up into, you know, potentially advanced

00:17:35.358 –> 00:17:38.538
defensive firearms training like you offer.

00:17:38.878 –> 00:17:44.078
So it’s not an automatic, but why do we spend so much time worrying about training

00:17:44.078 –> 00:17:48.038
for a tool that the chances of us ever having to use assumed a nil.

00:17:48.318 –> 00:17:51.098
And I’d say it’s because that tool.

00:17:51.920 –> 00:17:55.200
Is not very it requires

00:17:55.200 –> 00:17:58.440
a lot of training to use effectively right so if

00:17:58.440 –> 00:18:01.520
you’re going to elect to carry that particular tool you really need

00:18:01.520 –> 00:18:04.740
to make an effort to get the proper training i heard

00:18:04.740 –> 00:18:08.960
someone say more recently even for women that a knife might be a better choice

00:18:08.960 –> 00:18:15.260
in self-defense tool because with very little training in close counter situations

00:18:15.260 –> 00:18:19.240
which are they’re likely going to be involved with right especially with people

00:18:19.240 –> 00:18:21.840
that they know or that have loved them or whatever However,

00:18:22.100 –> 00:18:27.720
a knife might be a better choice because you can enact a lot of damage and not

00:18:27.720 –> 00:18:29.300
have a lot of training behind it, right?

00:18:29.700 –> 00:18:33.540
Like everybody knows what a knife does, but that’s why for guns,

00:18:33.540 –> 00:18:36.000
that tool does necessitate the training.

00:18:36.160 –> 00:18:40.600
And that was a point that we were definitely trying to make in that podcast as well.

00:18:40.980 –> 00:18:47.580
I think that that may be one of the areas that we disagree maybe in the practical

00:18:47.580 –> 00:18:50.940
application of the theory. I think we agree in the theory, it sounds like.

00:18:51.080 –> 00:18:54.920
But what I would say is this, you know, I have spent the last 20 plus years

00:18:54.920 –> 00:19:01.060
distilling defensive firearm skill development down to make it more efficient.

00:19:01.260 –> 00:19:05.500
Right. So when you start training in the traditional model, the 80s,

00:19:05.540 –> 00:19:09.520
you know, defensive handgun model, you really you started learning with the

00:19:09.520 –> 00:19:12.480
techniques that would help you hit a golf ball at 100 yards.

00:19:12.740 –> 00:19:17.600
Right. Like really isometric tension and push pull and bladed stances and front

00:19:17.600 –> 00:19:21.600
sight focus and sight all this trigger staging and all this stuff.

00:19:21.860 –> 00:19:25.500
And that that is a very high level physical skill.

00:19:25.640 –> 00:19:29.080
If you want to shoot a golf ball at 100 yards. The fact is what we’ve seen,

00:19:29.280 –> 00:19:34.380
the empirical data, many, many, many, many untrained people successfully use

00:19:34.380 –> 00:19:38.000
guns to stop lethal threats without any training whatsoever.

00:19:38.000 –> 00:19:39.220
They had the gun in their nightstand.

00:19:39.860 –> 00:19:42.740
They had the gun in the closet or they had the gun under the counter.

00:19:42.840 –> 00:19:44.900
At the convenience store that their grandfather started.

00:19:45.100 –> 00:19:47.140
You know, the grandfather left the gun there. It’s just been there.

00:19:47.220 –> 00:19:51.040
And they use those guns very intuitively to defend themselves. Sure.

00:19:51.651 –> 00:19:55.331
Pretty? Is it a hundred percent hit rate? You know, no, absolutely not.

00:19:55.431 –> 00:19:58.991
But we also know we learned when dash camera videos came out and so they own

00:19:58.991 –> 00:20:00.411
camera videos became more common.

00:20:00.631 –> 00:20:04.591
We also learned that the police officers in the late nineties and in the early

00:20:04.591 –> 00:20:08.691
two thousands, weren’t using those target shooting techniques that they use

00:20:08.691 –> 00:20:10.191
to get their qualification score.

00:20:10.391 –> 00:20:14.191
They were also improvising a great deal of what happened on the street.

00:20:15.451 –> 00:20:18.331
Winning, they were winning the fights, but they were winning with a 20% hit

00:20:18.331 –> 00:20:21.811
rate, not a 89% hit rate, like they had qualification score.

00:20:22.131 –> 00:20:28.331
So, so a lot of the idea that guns are hard to use, I would disagree with, but here’s where I,

00:20:28.531 –> 00:20:33.651
where I like in Rob’s, you know, half a second ahead version of what you were

00:20:33.651 –> 00:20:36.451
saying, what I anticipated you saying, or what I would say is this,

00:20:36.571 –> 00:20:41.891
the reason we emphasize training so much is because of the incredible responsibility.

00:20:42.371 –> 00:20:46.171
That comes with carrying a gun in public, boning a gun home.

00:20:46.311 –> 00:20:50.911
Because when you say, when you, You also said in that last piece,

00:20:51.011 –> 00:20:52.931
you don’t automatically become

00:20:52.931 –> 00:20:56.811
a badass. You don’t become more dangerous just because you own a gun.

00:20:57.171 –> 00:21:04.331
The fact is you’ve increased the risk of negative outcome in your home or in

00:21:04.331 –> 00:21:07.811
your space or for those around you when you bring in a firearm.

00:21:07.911 –> 00:21:10.771
That’s going to get cut out, and somebody on the Internet is going to say,

00:21:10.851 –> 00:21:12.771
oh, my God, Rob, how could you possibly say that?

00:21:12.931 –> 00:21:15.731
Well, I said it because it’s self-evident. If you buy a big dog,

00:21:15.951 –> 00:21:19.771
you just increase the chances of someone being bit by a dog in your home.

00:21:19.871 –> 00:21:23.771
If you build a pool, you increase the chances of someone drowning on your property.

00:21:23.951 –> 00:21:28.731
These are self-evident facts. So it is incredibly important that people get

00:21:28.731 –> 00:21:32.351
the training on responsible firearms owners,

00:21:32.711 –> 00:21:36.491
responsible firearms staging, responsible firearms carrying,

00:21:36.711 –> 00:21:42.711
responsible firearms deployment and use in situations, which is where we started 20 minutes ago.

00:21:42.711 –> 00:21:46.611
This idea that your guy cuts you off in traffic, you don’t pull your gun out.

00:21:47.071 –> 00:21:51.171
We may think you don’t take class to tell you that, but you do.

00:21:51.411 –> 00:21:55.091
You don’t, don’t, some guy stealing your truck in the front yard, you don’t.

00:21:55.639 –> 00:21:59.399
Start shooting at him through the window with your ar-15 and

00:21:59.399 –> 00:22:02.379
and somebody might actually right now be like well in texas you

00:22:02.379 –> 00:22:05.339
can you shouldn’t i don’t care if the law says

00:22:05.339 –> 00:22:08.899
you can i’m telling you as a gun rights advocate and a personal defense home

00:22:08.899 –> 00:22:13.799
defense home security educator you should not be shooting through a window to

00:22:13.799 –> 00:22:18.479
keep someone from stealing your truck yeah like it makes us all look bad yeah

00:22:18.479 –> 00:22:22.039
so well and it’s just you could you could literally kill a guy He’s just stealing

00:22:22.039 –> 00:22:23.499
your truck. You could kill something.

00:22:23.799 –> 00:22:26.959
We’ve had neighbors get shot because it’s like that. There’s just,

00:22:27.019 –> 00:22:28.799
you could lose your gun rights forever.

00:22:29.039 –> 00:22:33.839
Like I had my truck stolen in September. And if I had been looking out the window

00:22:33.839 –> 00:22:36.679
as the truck was, you know, the guy was breaking into the truck,

00:22:36.719 –> 00:22:40.379
I would not have grabbed an AR and started shooting down at him.

00:22:40.619 –> 00:22:45.919
I might have done something, right? But what I would not have done was deploy lethal force, right?

00:22:45.999 –> 00:22:50.179
There’s no justification for that. So the idea that a lot of the things you

00:22:50.179 –> 00:22:51.359
said really resonate with me,

00:22:51.439 –> 00:22:55.099
but I want to be really careful about what I see as the reason we advocate for

00:22:55.099 –> 00:22:59.739
training and education has everything to do with responsibility and not as much

00:22:59.739 –> 00:23:04.239
to do with the physical use of the gun in an appropriate situation.

00:23:04.999 –> 00:23:09.379
Because a lot of people, I think, envision completely inappropriate situations

00:23:09.379 –> 00:23:14.539
where they might want to use the gun and why the education becomes important.

00:23:14.539 –> 00:23:18.459
Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. And I don’t think we disagree that much.

00:23:18.519 –> 00:23:22.799
Actually, the reason why I put so much emphasis on training is because in the

00:23:22.799 –> 00:23:27.199
last 10 years, I’ve gotten, you know, I’m not at the range all the time.

00:23:27.339 –> 00:23:30.219
But before COVID, I was there as much as once a week, you know,

00:23:30.739 –> 00:23:34.779
doing what I thought I needed to be doing as a concealed carry individual.

00:23:34.779 –> 00:23:38.939
You know, I put emphasis on training because I do think it’s important that

00:23:38.939 –> 00:23:45.999
now I’ve got this tool that’s a, you know, a tool of force, a deadly weapon. Right.

00:23:46.439 –> 00:23:51.179
And I need to get training to know how best to use it, as you said,

00:23:51.259 –> 00:23:54.779
responsibly, whatever, whatever I’m doing with it.

00:23:55.396 –> 00:23:59.976
And so I think training for me personally is a big item because I know how much

00:23:59.976 –> 00:24:03.436
it’s meant to me and how much better of a shooter it’s made me over time.

00:24:03.656 –> 00:24:07.756
How much more knowledgeable, not that I know it all, I’m learning all the time.

00:24:07.756 –> 00:24:13.196
I’m always learning, but how much it’s made me think about scenarios and do

00:24:13.196 –> 00:24:15.116
things I wouldn’t have otherwise have done.

00:24:15.516 –> 00:24:19.296
And then the other thing that I think that’s important that I mentioned is,

00:24:19.396 –> 00:24:23.916
you know, learning some of those legal aspects, you know, can I do it?

00:24:24.036 –> 00:24:27.016
Should I do it? it depends right and thinking

00:24:27.016 –> 00:24:30.436
through scenarios you know some self-training right thinking

00:24:30.436 –> 00:24:33.216
about scenarios to be better prepared hey what would i do

00:24:33.216 –> 00:24:35.996
because the person that’s thought through the scenarios is going

00:24:35.996 –> 00:24:38.816
to respond better potentially than the person

00:24:38.816 –> 00:24:41.536
that hasn’t given it any thought at all and then the

00:24:41.536 –> 00:24:44.876
other part of that training is all of that aside you

00:24:44.876 –> 00:24:49.716
need some basic first aid and basic trauma care training right and so to me

00:24:49.716 –> 00:24:54.936
the training really is key oh absolutely it is and And that’s where it becomes

00:24:54.936 –> 00:24:56.616
really important is to remind everybody

00:24:56.616 –> 00:25:01.736
we’re talking about comprehensive self-defense and care education,

00:25:01.736 –> 00:25:05.676
not just shooting skill. There’s so much more to this.

00:25:05.896 –> 00:25:09.936
And, you know, I’m wearing an emergency trauma kit on my ankle right now.

00:25:09.936 –> 00:25:11.896
I am not carrying a gun right now.

00:25:11.996 –> 00:25:15.396
There’s a gun staged in a quick access safe about 12 feet from me.

00:25:15.536 –> 00:25:21.316
But when I go out, I’ll put the gun on. but the trauma kits on and the,

00:25:21.596 –> 00:25:26.916
when I, you know, came back from the house or ranking back to the house,

00:25:27.016 –> 00:25:28.436
I dropped my daughter off of school this morning.

00:25:28.816 –> 00:25:32.796
I was going to, I jumped in the shower. So the gun got put in the quick access safe.

00:25:33.016 –> 00:25:39.376
The trauma kit got taken off and put on the kit, you know, the bathroom Kennedy and came right back on.

00:25:39.536 –> 00:25:47.296
So, so the, this is something that is ingrained in probably for four or five years now. Um,

00:25:47.474 –> 00:25:50.714
It was about this time of the year because it was right during the European

00:25:50.714 –> 00:25:55.094
version of SHOT Show. I was introduced to the company that makes this ankle kit.

00:25:55.274 –> 00:25:56.994
And I can’t remember if it was four years ago or five years ago,

00:25:57.114 –> 00:26:00.994
but probably 300, literally 360 days a year.

00:26:01.134 –> 00:26:05.294
If I’m on the beach, which is a very rare thing, or if I’m wearing shorts around

00:26:05.294 –> 00:26:08.054
all day, which is a very rare thing. You may not have it on.

00:26:08.594 –> 00:26:12.314
Very ankle kit. So that, and I’m the gun guy, right? Right.

00:26:12.474 –> 00:26:18.934
So it is so important to think about kind of what if you’re really serious about personal defense.

00:26:19.174 –> 00:26:21.574
Yeah. And I think this really was the core of your point.

00:26:22.034 –> 00:26:28.254
The gun is a tool, a tool that will rarely be needed and rarely be the best answer.

00:26:28.834 –> 00:26:31.734
But it’s a tool that if you decide to bring it into your world,

00:26:32.054 –> 00:26:36.094
you better get the education and training around owning it, storing it,

00:26:36.274 –> 00:26:39.214
staging it, carrying it and using it appropriately. Yep.

00:26:39.734 –> 00:26:43.954
And and there’s a bunch of other stuff to learn even before you get to a gun.

00:26:44.054 –> 00:26:50.394
You know, we’ve talked about situational awareness, avoidance, deescalation, etc.

00:26:50.754 –> 00:26:53.834
So, yeah, I think we’re on the same page.

00:26:54.374 –> 00:26:57.074
Yeah, I think we are. And it really is.

00:26:57.611 –> 00:27:00.991
Sometimes it’s important to note that it’s not necessarily sequential, right?

00:27:01.971 –> 00:27:04.651
Because a lot of people are going to hear this. I’m going to share this, right?

00:27:04.711 –> 00:27:07.551
I’m going to share this with a bunch of gun owners who probably heard me say

00:27:07.551 –> 00:27:10.911
this kind of stuff 20 times and not heard it. It didn’t click, right?

00:27:11.151 –> 00:27:13.051
Today, it’s going to click. And they’re going to say, you know,

00:27:13.091 –> 00:27:14.171
I don’t carry a medical kit.

00:27:14.291 –> 00:27:17.991
Maybe I should look into that. I’ve never done, I’ve never really done any arms

00:27:17.991 –> 00:27:19.851
training. I mean, fitness, right?

00:27:20.011 –> 00:27:24.371
Like, that’s part of it. I mean, if you’re in the mall and somebody starts shooting

00:27:24.371 –> 00:27:29.811
up the mall and you can run out the door and get to your car or get off the

00:27:29.811 –> 00:27:32.991
property or run to someplace you can barricade yourself,

00:27:33.171 –> 00:27:37.691
you’re way better off than if you can’t run from that part of the mall.

00:27:37.891 –> 00:27:42.271
And the bad guy gets to that part of the mall before the police intercepts, right?

00:27:42.391 –> 00:27:46.351
Now you’ve got to draw your gun and shoot him. Whereas if you were physically

00:27:46.351 –> 00:27:48.911
fitter, you might’ve just been able to avoid the conflict.

00:27:49.111 –> 00:27:54.451
And, and that is the kind of stuff that you’re right. It doesn’t get talked about enough.

00:27:54.711 –> 00:27:59.671
But I also will say that this is a very, very different landscape than it was 10 or 15 years ago.

00:27:59.851 –> 00:28:04.111
20, 30 years ago, this stuff was hardly talked about unless you were really

00:28:04.111 –> 00:28:08.491
an advanced student of defense, armed defense. You didn’t hear any of this stuff.

00:28:08.891 –> 00:28:15.731
Today, you’d have to be willfully ignorant to not have heard from some qualified

00:28:15.731 –> 00:28:20.831
instructor that you should not go directly to the gun, that there are other

00:28:20.831 –> 00:28:23.671
things you should worry about, that medical training is part of it.

00:28:23.811 –> 00:28:26.851
And I say that the way I did, because if there’s an instructor out there today

00:28:26.851 –> 00:28:28.711
telling you, Hey, just get a gun. That’s all you need.

00:28:28.911 –> 00:28:32.371
Uh, you know, some of the things we used to get a 22, because at the end of

00:28:32.371 –> 00:28:35.971
the day, it just, as soon as you pull that gun out, the bad guy is going to run away.

00:28:36.031 –> 00:28:40.271
You don’t even need to load the gun. If you show them the gun, it’s going to run away.

00:28:40.491 –> 00:28:42.971
Just get a gun. If there’s somebody out there still doing that,

00:28:43.071 –> 00:28:46.171
tell them to shut up and give them my phone if he’s had a problem with it. Yeah.

00:28:46.531 –> 00:28:50.391
You said something earlier that made me think of one of my points that I tried

00:28:50.391 –> 00:28:53.911
to drive home as I do every chance I get with just about anyone.

00:28:54.171 –> 00:28:59.451
And that is, if you’re first time or not, you don’t have to be first time,

00:28:59.571 –> 00:29:03.931
but certainly if you’re a first time gun owner or just purchased a gun with

00:29:03.931 –> 00:29:07.791
everything that’s going on, please don’t take your cues from Hollywood.

00:29:08.651 –> 00:29:13.131
Please don’t take your cues from Hollywood. I think so much of the misinformation,

00:29:13.131 –> 00:29:18.031
much like the news and media that we see today, especially,

00:29:18.511 –> 00:29:22.471
and have for a while now, I think, you know, a lot of people think it’s going

00:29:22.471 –> 00:29:24.871
to happen just like it is in Hollywood.

00:29:26.571 –> 00:29:30.211
And that’s not the case at all. So to me, that’s another one of those reasons.

00:29:30.331 –> 00:29:33.231
Okay, if that’s what you think, or if you’re thinking when you think through

00:29:33.231 –> 00:29:36.531
your scenarios, you’re going to be doing those Rambo maneuvers or those,

00:29:36.891 –> 00:29:39.411
gosh, I can’t even think of the name of the movie right now.

00:29:39.531 –> 00:29:43.531
But, you know, the CQB stuff in your own home, not saying that there’s not a

00:29:43.531 –> 00:29:44.811
place for some of that stuff.

00:29:45.031 –> 00:29:49.691
But if that’s the way you’re envisioning things going down, you probably need

00:29:49.691 –> 00:29:53.491
a good dose of training from somebody that knows what they’re doing to kind

00:29:53.491 –> 00:29:56.151
of dial you in a little bit better, you know.

00:29:56.756 –> 00:30:01.696
Oh, for sure. It is. It is so important. And I and I’ve been guilty of this in the past.

00:30:01.796 –> 00:30:07.636
And I think our community, you know, nowadays, I think everybody like celebrates like John Wick.

00:30:07.856 –> 00:30:13.496
Right. And back on the day it was it was, you know, the gun handling and heat was great.

00:30:13.736 –> 00:30:19.576
The link in way of the gun was great. You know, I heard that seal consulting. That was great.

00:30:19.856 –> 00:30:23.476
Well, it’s great if you want to play Navy SEAL.

00:30:23.896 –> 00:30:28.896
Right. Or if a criminal kidnapper turned good guy in a movie script that wants

00:30:28.896 –> 00:30:31.536
to save the pregnant girl, yeah, I guess then it’s good.

00:30:31.736 –> 00:30:38.996
But in the real world, none of that is the appropriate defensive use of a gun.

00:30:39.156 –> 00:30:41.656
And that’s really hard to get people to understand.

00:30:42.316 –> 00:30:49.756
It’s no more real than any other house. That’s not really how hospitals work. Right.

00:30:49.896 –> 00:30:54.336
Like you have to remember it’s entertainment.

00:30:54.656 –> 00:30:58.216
And I think that works both ways. I’m sure there are plenty of people who watch

00:30:58.216 –> 00:31:01.536
certain media that makes them think the last thing they would ever want is to

00:31:01.536 –> 00:31:04.576
own a gun because it’s just recklessly dangerous to own a gun.

00:31:04.576 –> 00:31:06.096
And that’s not true either.

00:31:06.296 –> 00:31:10.816
But as a gun rights and responsibility guy, I have to assume I’m talking to

00:31:10.816 –> 00:31:13.136
people who own guns or will own guns.

00:31:13.216 –> 00:31:15.696
And I want you to focus on the responsibility.

00:31:15.896 –> 00:31:19.436
But that’s not to say, you know, wait 20 years.

00:31:19.596 –> 00:31:23.356
I’ve certainly told people that you’re not ready for a gun or a gun’s not right for you.

00:31:23.476 –> 00:31:24.756
But that’s the exception, right?

00:31:24.856 –> 00:31:29.696
Like what what percentage of the population is is a gun not right for?

00:31:29.876 –> 00:31:32.836
I would tell you that that I’m I cringe.

00:31:33.782 –> 00:31:36.862
Thinking about the number of people who are considered leaders in the gun rights

00:31:36.862 –> 00:31:41.542
community who would say, no one, everyone should have a gun.

00:31:42.502 –> 00:31:45.402
And they know better. And they know better and I know better and you know better.

00:31:45.402 –> 00:31:51.662
I don’t think it’s 10%, but it’s more than zero people shouldn’t own a gun.

00:31:51.982 –> 00:31:53.702
And I’m not saying shouldn’t be

00:31:53.702 –> 00:31:57.822
allowed to own a gun. I’m saying shouldn’t make the choice to own a gun.

00:31:58.022 –> 00:32:01.222
And that’s a conversation we need to be ready to have too. Yeah,

00:32:01.342 –> 00:32:05.322
I mean, some people just should not have power tools in their garage, right? Right.

00:32:06.942 –> 00:32:13.062
Absolutely. Well, one of the issues we deal with in our culture is we have an

00:32:13.062 –> 00:32:19.342
awareness of dementia and the havoc that can be wreaked upon a family and an

00:32:19.342 –> 00:32:23.182
individual when they just aren’t judging situations well.

00:32:23.362 –> 00:32:27.102
They aren’t paying attention to their situations well. They’re losing some of

00:32:27.102 –> 00:32:31.242
the neuromuscular control that they once had and their perception and judgment’s

00:32:31.242 –> 00:32:35.042
off, and we take away their car keys. You know, it doesn’t mean we don’t love it.

00:32:35.202 –> 00:32:39.422
You know, we just were taking your car keys away to protect you and protect society.

00:32:39.722 –> 00:32:43.062
And there’s no law, by the way. Right. There’s no law that says when you turn

00:32:43.062 –> 00:32:45.282
72, you have to go get your gut.

00:32:45.362 –> 00:32:48.222
You know, you have to show up and get a psych test to see if you can drive.

00:32:48.222 –> 00:32:53.342
We just think out in our society that we need to take the car keys away for

00:32:53.342 –> 00:32:55.142
individuals on an individual basis.

00:32:55.422 –> 00:33:02.442
And we say take the car keys away very specifically because it’s a judgment

00:33:02.442 –> 00:33:07.242
perception, mental processing issue that might prevent somebody from willingly

00:33:07.242 –> 00:33:08.862
giving up the keys. Right.

00:33:09.382 –> 00:33:13.322
But something like a living will, you know, if I’m diagnosed with dementia or

00:33:13.322 –> 00:33:16.902
other cognitive issues, I want you to take my car keys away.

00:33:16.922 –> 00:33:20.442
Even if I’m fighting you over it, please protect me and protect our community.

00:33:20.642 –> 00:33:24.122
I think we need to be doing the same thing with firearms. Right.

00:33:24.222 –> 00:33:27.702
If there is, it’s almost the same exact scenario.

00:33:27.822 –> 00:33:34.322
If I take grandpa’s car keys away, how can I responsibly leave a loaded gun behind his door? Right.

00:33:35.295 –> 00:33:39.835
Yeah, no, it’s a good point. And arguably, they’re both deadly weapons at the

00:33:39.835 –> 00:33:41.935
end of the day after 14 accidents.

00:33:42.135 –> 00:33:46.555
And maybe that’s the maybe that’s on that particular topic.

00:33:46.735 –> 00:33:50.075
Maybe that’s the difference between the two, though, is that,

00:33:50.195 –> 00:33:52.975
you know, like my buddy had to recently.

00:33:53.335 –> 00:33:58.055
Well, it’s a year plus ago now, but my buddy more recently had to take his car

00:33:58.055 –> 00:34:01.755
keys away from his stepdad for just that reason. He, I think,

00:34:01.815 –> 00:34:07.315
had been in four accidents, hitting cars in parking lots, even hit a school bus one afternoon.

00:34:08.895 –> 00:34:15.235
And, you know, my point is, is that in the car scenarios, there’s things that

00:34:15.235 –> 00:34:18.115
are exhibited or that are that

00:34:18.115 –> 00:34:22.355
have happened to cause you to need to consider taking those keys away.

00:34:22.795 –> 00:34:26.495
Loaded gun behind the door. It might be just a matter of time,

00:34:26.615 –> 00:34:30.315
but nothing’s happened yet. But to your point, with the gun,

00:34:30.755 –> 00:34:36.475
we shouldn’t be waiting until something happens to take action with that tool, maybe.

00:34:36.735 –> 00:34:42.015
Is that a fair overview? I mean, I certainly wouldn’t say that,

00:34:42.195 –> 00:34:45.395
you know, I’m not a, I’m not a driving rights advocate, right?

00:34:45.535 –> 00:34:48.575
Or a driving, but I would say that, yeah, if you’re, if you’re,

00:34:48.695 –> 00:34:53.355
you can’t have the metric can’t be after three or four fender benders within

00:34:53.355 –> 00:34:56.735
six months, if someone’s over the age of 65, it’s time to take the keys.

00:34:56.855 –> 00:35:01.275
I feel like it’s so, it’s so subjective, right? There is no metric and we’re

00:35:01.275 –> 00:35:04.035
not talking about the government coming in and taking away the car keys.

00:35:04.155 –> 00:35:09.955
We’re talking about the family realizing that it’s time to use the Uber. and it is really…

00:35:10.431 –> 00:35:14.911
Like I said, incredibly subjective. Certainly we can have a negligent discharge.

00:35:15.091 –> 00:35:19.391
I’ve had negligent discharge. I’ve had two in my life that I can point to and

00:35:19.391 –> 00:35:26.111
say, I wasn’t paying enough attention and a gun went off when I didn’t intend for it to go off.

00:35:26.891 –> 00:35:30.951
There were redundant safety protocols and procedures.

00:35:31.271 –> 00:35:35.711
Nothing bad happened. No one was injured. The bullet went where it was supposed to go.

00:35:35.851 –> 00:35:40.631
But in both cases, I know cognitively, I was not expecting the gun to go bang.

00:35:40.951 –> 00:35:44.491
And in one case, I purposefully pulled the trigger. In another case,

00:35:44.611 –> 00:35:48.791
I absentmindedly had my finger in a position where the trigger got pulled while

00:35:48.791 –> 00:35:52.091
I was focused on something else, but it was my action.

00:35:52.431 –> 00:35:57.871
And if I weren’t, I would worry if I weren’t able to say, this is how it happened.

00:35:58.031 –> 00:36:01.431
This is the mistake that was made. This is the thing that I did wrong.

00:36:01.991 –> 00:36:06.851
That’s the indicator, right? It’s like, okay, so why did you hit that tree?

00:36:07.191 –> 00:36:10.651
Well, it moved. Well, no, the tree didn’t. No, it didn’t.

00:36:11.851 –> 00:36:16.011
If you can’t even admit that you ran into the tree, well, the car just lurched

00:36:16.011 –> 00:36:17.811
to the left. No, it didn’t. No, it didn’t. Right?

00:36:17.951 –> 00:36:20.671
Like you let go of the steering wheel, or you did this, or you swirled because

00:36:20.671 –> 00:36:22.611
of a squirrel, or something happened.

00:36:22.791 –> 00:36:27.511
And if you can’t articulate and define what happened, that might be the indicator

00:36:27.511 –> 00:36:30.711
that it’s time to change, you know, to take away.

00:36:30.851 –> 00:36:33.311
Yeah, give it up. But that situation develops again.

00:36:33.511 –> 00:36:38.551
So I don’t know that we can say it’s, you know, with a car, it’s not as urgent.

00:36:38.751 –> 00:36:42.391
Because certainly that first accident could kill the school bus full of kids, right?

00:36:42.491 –> 00:36:46.291
So it’s just something we all need to exercise responsibility.

00:36:46.291 –> 00:36:50.991
We all need to advocate for responsibility amongst our peers and our family

00:36:50.991 –> 00:36:53.471
and those we care about and everybody else in society.

00:36:53.631 –> 00:36:58.471
And if we’re doing that genuinely, then it’s not a question of taking away someone’s rights.

00:36:58.671 –> 00:37:01.991
It’s a question of preventing somebody from doing something tragic.

00:37:02.651 –> 00:37:08.271
Yep. Couldn’t agree more. Sure. So I know it, I know you are the one that reached

00:37:08.271 –> 00:37:12.271
out when I put out that last podcast. Is there anything else you wanted to cover?

00:37:12.811 –> 00:37:16.731
I just, I, like I said, Jim, I appreciate the conversations. I think that this.

00:37:17.480 –> 00:37:22.880
This dialogue revealed some maybe fine-tuning or refinement of my own thoughts

00:37:22.880 –> 00:37:24.660
based on some of the things you said.

00:37:24.820 –> 00:37:30.660
Your podcast made me think about what you meant and what I think and where there’s

00:37:30.660 –> 00:37:32.280
alignment and where there’s disagreement.

00:37:32.500 –> 00:37:34.980
I think, as you said, we really probably don’t disagree all that much.

00:37:35.060 –> 00:37:38.300
I think that there are things I emphasize. There’s things you emphasize.

00:37:38.620 –> 00:37:44.280
I hope that anybody listening to this right now does go back and listen to your show.

00:37:44.380 –> 00:37:46.960
Do you happen to know which episode it was? That was the last one,

00:37:47.100 –> 00:37:49.720
which was 35, three years of this.

00:37:50.700 –> 00:37:55.520
Self-initiative 35. If you’re in my audience and you don’t listen to Jim’s podcast, keep an eye on it.

00:37:55.600 –> 00:37:59.860
But especially if this was interesting to you, go back and listen to what he said.

00:38:00.180 –> 00:38:07.100
I think that the two, you know, the willingness that you show to further explore your ideas.

00:38:07.280 –> 00:38:10.780
And again, you know, for the audience’s benefit, the way I reached out was kind

00:38:10.780 –> 00:38:13.880
of like, hey, I’m not sure I agree with you on all these points.

00:38:14.360 –> 00:38:19.920
If you’re open to it, let’s hash this out for the good of earth. Let’s do it publicly.

00:38:20.200 –> 00:38:25.420
And your willingness to do that speaks volumes about your sincerity and your

00:38:25.420 –> 00:38:27.560
interest in the dialogues.

00:38:27.740 –> 00:38:29.880
I think the dialogue is where we learn more about ourselves.

00:38:30.060 –> 00:38:33.820
And hopefully people who eavesdrop on that dialogue get a lot out of it.

00:38:33.880 –> 00:38:35.280
So I hope that’s what’s happened here.

00:38:35.360 –> 00:38:40.320
And I really appreciate you doing it and having me back on the show to do it.

00:38:40.640 –> 00:38:43.640
Yeah, absolutely. And I appreciate you reaching out again and us being able

00:38:43.640 –> 00:38:45.080
to connect again and do this.

00:38:45.200 –> 00:38:48.640
And hopefully, you know, like you said, the people that are listening get that

00:38:48.640 –> 00:38:51.980
like they understand now that we’ve even talked through it further.

00:38:52.560 –> 00:38:58.740
If they go back and listen to 35, they’ll understand even better now what the

00:38:58.740 –> 00:39:04.740
points were I was trying to get across because of the dialogue that we’ve had about that very topic.

00:39:04.740 –> 00:39:07.880
So I appreciate the opportunity to talk to you about it.

00:39:07.880 –> 00:39:13.540
And I think, you know, in the gun community, we would do ourselves better if we were,

00:39:13.720 –> 00:39:16.780
and I know folks like yourself and others are doing it more,

00:39:16.920 –> 00:39:21.880
but if we had more open dialogue or more willingness to have more open dialogue

00:39:21.880 –> 00:39:28.580
and less name calling or emotional grabbing headlines and what we were trying to accomplish,

00:39:28.760 –> 00:39:31.280
because I think that’s just going to only help.

00:39:31.420 –> 00:39:35.780
Well, I know it’s only going to help reach those that we’re actually trying to talk to and reach.

00:39:36.260 –> 00:39:40.220
So I appreciate you doing it. Yeah, man. Thank you. Thank you very much.

00:39:40.440 –> 00:39:43.280
And again, continued success with the show. And if there’s anything I can do

00:39:43.280 –> 00:39:45.560
for you or your audience, let me know.

00:39:45.720 –> 00:39:48.600
If you’re interested in the training information that we’ve been stressing,

00:39:48.920 –> 00:39:53.100
not just the gun stuff, but everything else, personaldefensenetwork.com.

00:39:53.100 –> 00:39:57.080
There are literally hundreds of free articles and videos there hitting on on

00:39:57.080 –> 00:40:01.840
just about every aspect of firearms related training information,

00:40:02.080 –> 00:40:05.620
the medical information, the unarmed information, the staging and storage,

00:40:05.860 –> 00:40:09.960
the when you should use the gun. All that’s there. Personal defense.

00:40:10.340 –> 00:40:14.900
You got all kinds of good information there. And you’ve also got ice training as well.

00:40:15.707 –> 00:40:21.927
Yeah, the intuitiveshooting.com website is the home of the ICE training calendar

00:40:21.927 –> 00:40:26.027
for my in-person stuff and for those who have been certified by me.

00:40:26.227 –> 00:40:29.767
And it’s probably worth mentioning that United States Concealed Carry Association,

00:40:29.767 –> 00:40:34.807
they asked me several years ago to write a curriculum for them to basically

00:40:34.807 –> 00:40:39.607
take my material and adapt it for the scope and scale at which they can reach people.

00:40:39.607 –> 00:40:45.327
So they have level one and level two defensive shooting fundamentals courses

00:40:45.327 –> 00:40:46.567
they offer around the country.

00:40:46.727 –> 00:40:50.447
And we’ve got hundreds of certified instructors offering that program through

00:40:50.447 –> 00:40:52.647
the United States Concealed Carry Association as well.

00:40:52.727 –> 00:40:56.207
So the information is, it’s readily available, readily accessible.

00:40:56.427 –> 00:41:00.407
There’s books out there, there’s DVDs, and there’s a lot of great conversations

00:41:00.407 –> 00:41:04.587
like this one that I’ve had with other people in the training community and otherwise as well.

00:41:04.587 –> 00:41:08.627
I hope people that are looking for this don’t ever think that you have to spend

00:41:08.627 –> 00:41:13.087
hundreds of dollars or days on the range or, you know, whatever to get this education.

00:41:13.327 –> 00:41:18.367
It’s largely the fundamentals, maybe the most important parts are available

00:41:18.367 –> 00:41:21.207
for free out there if you just do a little digging around. Yeah,

00:41:21.327 –> 00:41:23.347
there’s a lot of information out there for free.

00:41:23.547 –> 00:41:27.627
Good, good information for free. And, you know, I know you’ve got your home

00:41:27.627 –> 00:41:29.047
range down in St. Augustine.

00:41:29.167 –> 00:41:36.147
I love St. Augustine. I spent my time as a kid with my family vacationing down

00:41:36.147 –> 00:41:37.767
in that area. And I love St.

00:41:37.847 –> 00:41:41.147
Augustine. I need to get down there and do some shooting with you, Rob, for sure.

00:41:41.147 –> 00:41:44.027
That would that would be great i am uh just i’m

00:41:44.027 –> 00:41:46.767
actually that’s i’m literally the minute

00:41:46.767 –> 00:41:50.007
we hang up i’m going to start loading the truck i’m going to drive down there uh

00:41:50.007 –> 00:41:54.727
this is now uh getting to be the middle of march and i’ll be 10 days in a row

00:41:54.727 –> 00:41:58.727
doing video work and teaching on the range there but it is my eastern headquarters

00:41:58.727 –> 00:42:03.607
i’m there quite often and uh it is a great place to train at ancient city shooting

00:42:03.607 –> 00:42:07.447
range awesome well rob thanks again for coming on and we’ll talk to you soon

00:42:07.447 –> 00:42:09.307
thanks jim have a great day.

00:42:09.360 –> 00:42:28.571
Music.